Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

What is it you want or expect to hear? You've abandoned your faith (not entirely your fault, taking into account where you grew up), you've married out and your son isn't circumcised. Are you looking for someone to tell you all this doesn't matter and there is no true way to practice Judaism?

Because you won't hear that from me or any other frum Jew for that matter.

Thank you for your reply @JeweyJew - though I'm not sure I deserve the hostility (unless that's deliberately part of the answer you are giving me!). I don't want or expect anything - I was curious as to whether more observant Jews would consider me Jewish at all, or whether (as you put it) you'd think that I've abandoned my faith.

Ignore the rogue 'like' in the first sentence, it's not meant to be there!

Respectfully, are you at all interested in Judaism or are you just trying to be rude? And in any case, how is this a woman's issue?

It's not complicated. One born as a non-Jew isn't Jewish, unless they go through the necessary steps to convert.

When one doesn't do that it's like Dylan Mulvaney claiming to be a woman just because he feels like one. Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

@JeweyJew

What is it you want or expect to hear? You've abandoned your faith (not entirely your fault, taking into account where you grew up), you've married out and your son isn't circumcised. Are you looking for someone to tell you all this doesn't matter and there is no true way to practice Judaism?

Because you won't hear that from me or any other frum Jew for that matter.

This is an example of such a needlessly hostile reply. Read that posters question back. She asked a question politely and openly, and signed off kindly and respectfully. And you replied in a hostile and aggressive way with an accusatory tone.

This really is something that could be transformative if you work on it. Your life will be far more enjoyable and conversations far more productive if you can learn to speak to people respectfully instead of being hostile and disrespectful. It's completely unnecessary.

With respect, there was no hostility intended. I'm just trying to understand the point of your question. By your own account you have basically cut all ties to Judaism, so what is it you want to hear?

Goodness, that's very off-putting.

My wife bears the brunt of the housework while I do the same for breadwinning. Though my wife does bring in some money and I do some cooking and cleaning.

I asked the question because I thought you meant if you are not an ethnic jew, even if you have converted, you are not a jew. But I think what you are saying is there is only one Jewish way, and that is the ultra orthodox way. So regardless of whether you are a jew by ethnicity or not, unless you follow this, then in your opinion, those people are not jews. Hence your opposition to reform strands is not based on ethnicity, but based on religious grounds. Correct? Where do you stand on conversions?

@JeweyJew

With respect, there was no hostility intended.

If multiple people independently tell you that your posts throughout the thread, and the previous one, come across as hostile and aggressive, isn't it worth reflecting on that and apologising then changing your approach? Rather than just saying you don't intent to be hostile?

If lots of people told me independently that I was coming across in a certain way, I can't imagine responding the way you have. Which is to continue doing the same thing and bulldozing on, leaving multiple people feeling disrespected and portraying yourself as rude and entitled.

You don't deserve the hostility at all.

I think that a lot of the female posters are going to be busy with shabbos preparation now, and the only responses will be from the male poster on this thread, which is bringing a different tone, one which some people might find hurtful.

With respect, there was no hostility intended. I'm just trying to understand the point of your question. By your own account you have basically cut all ties to Judaism, so what is it you want to hear?

@JeweyJew . From my post: " I was born Jewish and see myself as a Jew, went to a reform Jewish primary, speak Hebrew but live too far from a synagogue to participate regularly (I'd love to be nearer) [...] we do Hannukah and maybe RH in a good year but no real engagement with the calendar of Jewish life unless visiting (Israeli) relatives at the right time of year."

I wouldn't say I've cut ties to Judaism at all - "cutting ties" sounds to me like actively renouncing something rather than, as I find myself, cack-handedly reading my kids books about Jewish life when I can, doing the holidays as best I can, still speaking the language, travelling to Israel when circumstances allow to be with Jewish family. Believing in G-d, trying to conduct myself accordingly.

I think you have answered my question, albeit perhaps not in the way intended. Thank you anyway.

Yes. There is no point posting until the women return, sadly.

Firstly I think you're projecting your own tone based on previous interactions in this thread. Secondly, some people mistake frankness and clarity for hostility and aggression.

I was being neither hostile not aggressive, only frank and clear.

Attitudes like yours give Judaism a bad name, and drive people away from the community.

Mind you, I was once told by a Charedi man that the Holocaust was G-d's punishment for the Jews for not being sufficiently observant.

I was 16 and I think that was the moment that alienated me from the more dogmatic, narrow-minded forms of Judaism forever.

So I'm not entirely surprised by this. It is repugnant to see dogma presented as 'fact' and one particular interpretation presented as 'the only correct way to be Jewish'.

You don't get to pronounce who is and is not Jewish, or what is and isn't the 'only correct form' of Judaism. You seem unable to grasp the difference between opinion and fact, or to understand that your view holds no more authority than mine, or any other Jew's. You can Eric Cartman as much as you want, but I do not respect your authoritah.

Look, part of being Orthodox is accepting the authority of the Orthodox rabbis, and that includes conversion. One hopes that a reform or liberal rabbi who is converting someone will level with them, and say to them - when you convert, you will be accepted in reform or liberal circles, but that Orthodox Jews won't regard what we do as a valid conversion - but my impression is that they often don't and it sometimes comes as a shock to people, which is a shame. On the other hand, I know of numbers of people who did their conversion first with the reform, because that is all they knew about, as as they learnt more, they decided that was not enough, and eventually they ended up converting Orthodox.

That option always stays open - if that is really, really what you want and it is sufficiently important to you.

Perhaps @JeweyJew would like to be respectful of the feedback from women on here, both Jewish and non Jewish, who have said his approach and contributions have often been rude, disrespectful, hostile and sometimes inappropriate, and hold off on further posting until the Jewish women sharing their insights can also join in again.

Yes, it becomes “Ask Man Anything” or “Ask, man answers.”

Ba ha ha I am laughing at the South Park reference!
I was actually thinking about Cartman and his authoritah with regard to JeweyJew!
Thank you.
FWIW I am very interested in Judaism.
And I think this is one of the best AMAs I've ever seen on here.

No disrespect, but cutting ties can be done by actions rather than words.

Marrying out was historical seen as the ultimate betrayal. Even Jews who kept nothing still married other Jews.

Likewise for circumcision. The vast majority of secular Israelis, even those who eat pork and don't keep Yom Kippur, circumcise their children. This is the covenant we have with Hashem and has always been the hallmark of a Jew.

Firstly I think you're projecting your own tone based on previous interactions in this thread. Secondly, some people mistake frankness and clarity for hostility and aggression.

Impact counts, not jusy intent. If multiple people say your words are received as hostile and aggressive, it's baffling to me that you would prioritise your ego over wanting to engage in a more productive and respectful way.

I was being neither hostile not aggressive, only frank and clear.

Again, multiple people have all given you the same feedback on your tone. And again, it's astonishingly arrogant (and quite bizarre) not to take that on board at all.

You said on the previous thread that you know you can come across is rude. You just don't seem to care enough to actively work on that, which is a shame for you as much as for those you engage with.

Your determination to continue to speak in a way that makes you comfortable but women uncomfortable is quite something.

I also married out, my son is not circumcised, and both of my children identify strongly as Jewish (and in my daughter's case, has very recently been subjected to antisemitic abuse as a result).

We celebrate the holidays, attend or host a seder every year, attend services semi-regularly, etc.

And perhaps just as importantly, we are joining our families with other, non-Jewish families, meaning that people like my in-laws, who never had a really close relationship with any Jews before, now have Jewish grandchildren whom they deeply love, and a relationship with Jewishness that they never had before. This is something to be celebrated.

Just because you and I and our families are taking Judaism and Jewishness forwards in a different way, doesn't make us 'lesser Jews' or 'bad Jews', no matter what extremely narrow-minded, patriarchal men might like to proclaim. There is more than one way to be a Jew, and to be a good, proud Jew.

I really said I'd stop posting and prepare for Shabbos already, but I couldn't leave you with the response that you got from @JeweyJew who although may be an ultra orthodox jew he definitely doesn't have the orthodox attitude.

I'm ultra orthodox and I'll tell you my view.
When seeing anyone non religious I wouldn't and shouldn't judge their observance. That's between them and God. Who are we to judge their choices and actions?
I would perhaps feel sorry that they are missing out, often because of lack of education, and would hope that with time they would have opportunities to learn and practice more.

" I was being neither hostile not aggressive, only frank and clear"

Oh well, that's all right then.
A Man Has Spoken.

@JeweyJew you didn't answer whether it was completely in keeping with your faith to be allowed to belittle women, mansplain to them and occupy space on a (predominately female and predominantly not filled with orthodox Jewish people) parenting website?

How are you squaring that with your faith incidentally? Don't you have a job?