Page 18 | Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

mirah2 · 2023-04-27T16:10:17+00:00

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes... New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post. I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime. I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage. Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember: - this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read - please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that. Go forth and post!

Shroedy · 28/04/2023 13:02

I think @JeweyJew is evidencing one of the most difficult things about cross communal engagement within the Jewish community. That the most orthodox usually consider they have a monopoly on what it is to be Jewish and Judaism. Sorry @JeweyJew but what you state as a "dry fact" would not be considered a dry fact by all Jews or denominations of Judaism, that's the point. And I say that as someone who aligns with orthodoxy. Do you genuinely not get that? That's in fact the whole point of eg Reform and Liberal Judaism, they don't just see themselves as "less observant" but perceive what is required by Gd of a Jew as different.

jewishorthomum · 28/04/2023 13:02

legrandcolbert · 28/04/2023 12:28

That's really kind, thank you.

Ironically, there's a belligerence about JeweyJew that really reminds me of my dad.

Am strongly certain that my dad's own disinterest stems from two things. Firstly, he was terribly dyslexic and he really struggled to read and write English, so Hebrew would have been a nightmare. I don't think religion was a big part of his family's life. His father was a shiker and liked to gamble too, so my dad had also left school at 13 to take over the family business and threw everything into work. That was his sole purpose. He was financially very successful but it came at price. We didn't have a good relationship and I never really felt he was there for me. This was something I really struggled with because from what I knew about Jews as a whole, family looked after their own.

For me, I feel a huge sense of embarrassment, shame even about my own lack of Jewishness. But, like I said, your words are kind and comforting and being able to share this is hugely cathartic. Thank you.

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Your honesty is very touching.
There is no shame in doing your best given your circumstances. And it sounds like you've had your fair share of life.

We have a concept in Judaism to "not remind a returnee to Judaism of his past" this is in order to prevent any shame or embarrassment that may have about his prior life not aligning with the Torah. You should never be put down because of past actions and I'm sorry you've felt that way.

Reaching out to find out more about Judaism is very courageous and again you will always be welcomed.

Original poster

mirah2 · 28/04/2023 13:03

AspidistraFlying · 28/04/2023 12:53

Well, if I had any questions about whether a certain kind of tone-deaf male pontification is a cross-religion thing, I certainly have my answers now.

Perhaps out of all the things that bring women of different faiths and backgrounds together, it is the prevalence of mansplaining.

Thanks to the women who have made this and the previous thread such a warm and informative read.

Thank you!

I think the other Orthodox female posters have it covered up. Thanks to them.

All I will add, on a skim read, is this:

We have two types of mitzvot - mitzvot bein adam l'makom (human and G-d), and mitzvot bein adam l'chavero (human and human).

Sadly, some Orthodox Jews are so caught up in mitzvot bein adam l'makom that they fail to do mitzvot bein adam l'chavero properly.

JeweyJew, for all his input, is a good example of this. I'm sorry to anyone who has been offended by him.

Shabbat shalom

OP posts:

FirstTimeNameChanger · 28/04/2023 13:06

Thank you @EllaDisenchanted for your considered and compassionate response. It has a lot of meaning for me. My grandparents, Holocaust survivors, were good Jews even though they did not live an ultra orthodox life. They were persecuted because they were Jewish, for another Jew to then say that they were bad Jews is offensive and hurtful.

@JeweyJew words like good and bad are judgement terms that make people feel judged and therefore defensive and upset or angry.

FirstTimeNameChanger · 28/04/2023 13:07

Shabbat shalom and thank you again, this has been a very moving and informative read

JeweyJew · 28/04/2023 13:11

This reply has been deleted

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AnorLondo · 28/04/2023 13:15

JeweyJew · 28/04/2023 12:52

Oh I get what you mean now. Let me clarify, when I said bad Jew I wasn't judging anyone as people. Judgement is up to Hashem, and most of us don't live up to our potential and/or stumble at times.

What I was trying to say, albeit perhaps not as clearly as I should have, is that if someone doesn't believe in Hashem and His Torah, they're not doing Judaism properly. This isn't a judgement rather a statement of fact.

I keep coming back to the analogy because I think it's apt. I could have the utmost sympathy with a TW's struggles and traumas as a person, and really respect them, but the fact remains that they're a man. That's not a judgement but a statement of fact.

Saying things like all TW are predators is judgement and condemnation, but just the dry fact that all TW are men is not.

Jews are Jews. If they struggle with religion, that's for Hashem to judge. But the fact remains that the only authentic form(s) of Judaism is Orthodox.

Someone born Jewish who belongs to 'alternative' streams is sadly not following authentic Judaism. It might not be their fault and it's certainly not up to me to judge, but the dry fact remains that they're not following Judaism.

Similarly, a non-Jew who's converted via reform etc, simply put, hasn't. They're still non-Jews. Again, no judgement, just fact.

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Lmao, are you for real? You can't call someone a bad anything without it inherently being a judgement. And whether someone is bad or good at doing or being something is entirely subjective.

it's certainly not up to me to judge

Then stop fucking doing it then.

A little while ago a man started a thread on here about how women should submit to their husbands. And then acted all shocked when people weren't supportive of that idea. You seem like you're cut from the same cloth.

danceyourselfdizzy1 · 28/04/2023 13:18

JeweyJew · 28/04/2023 12:22

It's a bot frustrating when posters can't seem to grasp the difference between a good person in general and a good Jew as relates to Judaism.

If you don't do Judaism what makes you specifically a good Jew?

What's frustrating is that you clearly have no interest in listening to the many wonderful Jewish women on this thread who have - rather too politely I might add - pointed out this is a thread by, or about, Jewish women. You are not a woman, and as much as you claim to understand their experience because you apparently listen to your wife, the fact is you do not share their lived experience.

Perhaps it's time to bow-out. You are simply causing distraction on an otherwise fascinating discussion. So I'll be less polite - I want to hear from them, not you!

danceyourselfdizzy1 · 28/04/2023 13:26

I have a question (to the Jewish women on this thread). I know it's quite common to cover up mirrors when there is a death in the family for a set period of time and this is also customary in some Catholic households too. Is this common across all Jewish households, or only in orthodox families?

TheGander · 28/04/2023 13:27

As a non Jew I’d like to thank all the participants for this thread. I think a lot of non Jews are kind of fascinated by Orthodox Jews but have little opportunity to interact in real life. This has been very enriching and I for one appreciate all who have patiently posted and answered questions. I grew up in a country which had recently purged its Jewish population ( Algeria) and my grandad was a french Jew who miraculously escaped the holocaust so I understand the vulnerabilities and desire to keep you community integrity. Long May you thrive!

AliceOlive · 28/04/2023 13:28

I grasp what he thinks he’s saying, but think he’s attempting to exercise an authority and influence that he has not earned with any of us.

Much like when he told us how women feel, then insisted he knows how his wife feels so that gives him authority. But he has no credibility here because we don’t know him. And because he’s quite naive if he thinks he truly knows exactly what any woman (or person) thinks and feels.

I have a neighbor like this. He is something in his synagogue. Respected, I’m sure. But he seems to believe that makes him someone with influence outside of there as well. He kept coming into my yard without asking. When I said he should knock on the door if he wants to do so, he told me what time he’d be back in my yard. He was shocked when I said no.

TheGander · 28/04/2023 13:28

As a non Jew I’d like to thank all the participants for this thread. I think a lot of non Jews are kind of fascinated by Orthodox Jews but have little opportunity to interact in real life. This has been very enriching and I for one appreciate all who have patiently posted and answered questions. I grew up in a country which had recently purged its Jewish population ( Algeria) and my grandad was a french Jew who miraculously escaped the holocaust so I understand the vulnerabilities and desire to keep you community integrity. Long May you thrive!

TheGander · 28/04/2023 13:29

Apologies for double post. Poor internet connection

Ortiguilla · 28/04/2023 13:32

legrandcolbert · 28/04/2023 12:01

Agreed.

My mother died when I was young, she had always been the one who took the lead. My father had little interest in the religious or traditions, so although we did still keep kosher, everything else stopped. I didn't go to JFS, instead went to a private independent school. Zero Jews in my year and few in the school as a whole, so being Jewish was incredibly lonely. Through no real fault of my own, I found myself cut off from everything. Although Jewish friends of my mother had reached out to me when she died, my dad didn't like them, nor they him, so it was too difficult to navigate.

Now I am in my 40s, and with much help and encouragement from some Jewish friends I met shortly before the pandemic and trying to bridge the gap. But it is really hard.

I have spent much of my life feeling like I don't fit and always took comfort from the fact that I'm Jewish and other Jews will always accept me. So reading what you have said has rather been a slap in the face.

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I'm sorry you lost your mum so young and that it had such a negative impact on your relationship with your Jewishness. Please rest assured that that one, very unpleasant poster does not represent other Jews at all. I absolutely welcome you as part of our Jewish family, and I'm confident I am in the majority when I say that.

His comment about being 'a bad Jew' or 'like a TW pretending to be a woman' was directed at me, someone who was raised by two 100% Jewish parents and growing up completely as part of a Jewish community. It is rude, wrong, meaningless rubbish.

Shabbat shalom, good shabbos xx

jewishorthomum · 28/04/2023 13:39

I've really enjoyed this conversation. I have to go now and focus on getting ready for Shabbos. I'll check back in once Shabbos is over if there are still any questions.

Have a lovely Shabbos and weekend everyone. X

Betaalpha · 28/04/2023 13:49

How great there is a new thread! Given I just noticed it and we are now at already 18 pages, I am quickly posting what I had posted there last, without reading through this one yet, so apologies if someone had answered them.

**
There were three different answers to the conversion question, which is the very jewish thing you guys mentioned :)

1-"Judaism is an ethnicity so non-jews can't be made Jews" (couldn’t remember who said this) This sounds a bit sad to me that an ethnicity is a prerequisite to a way of believing and following G-d...

2- @amcha, "there are multiple paths to G-d and Jews are obligated to their own path, and non-jews should follow their path unless they really believe judaism is their path". I really like this, it is a non-judgemental way of looking at things, which is very different than other religions . So jews do believe there are multiple ways to G-D and theirs is not the one and true path only. Hope I interpreted that correctly?

3- @GrimDamnFanjo , "Jews are not unwilling towards conversion but don't seek converts out because of the difficulty involved".. but that just assumes non-jews won't deal with the difficulty?
**

So I guess the question is, what would most Jews agree with on the above? And is there a difference of opinions between the Ultra-orthodox, reform etc versions? Admittedly, I had assumed it was a superiority / exclusivity thing, but it doesn't seem to be based on the above (except perhaps number 1). Would you agree?

Shroedy · 28/04/2023 13:53

@JeweyJew those are your beliefs, not dry facts. You're entitled to those beliefs but they're not dry facts. You don't get to posit those beliefs as objective truth.

Betaalpha · 28/04/2023 13:54

@JeweyJew you said Similarly, a non-Jew who's converted via reform etc, simply put, hasn't. They're still non-Jews. Again, no judgement, just fact.

how about a non-jew who has converted to become ultra orthodox, the jewest of the jews in your definition :) but ethnically non-jew? do you consider them a jew, say, after ten years?

Fink · 28/04/2023 13:55

If Charedi Judaism is anything like my religion, there'll be some questions asked over at shul kiddush in a couple of places tonight and the women on here will find out who JeweyJew is IRL and have a word with his wife to tell him to butt out ... or at least exchange a knowing sigh and realise that it's not worth talking to his wife. 😎It's probably too big and diverse a community in the UK now for that to work anymore, but worth a giggle.

TheWayTheLightFalls · 28/04/2023 13:55

I think my timing is terrible, but fwiw - what do more observant (Orthodox) Jews think about "cultural Jews" like me? I was born Jewish and see myself as a Jew, went to a reform Jewish primary, speak Hebrew but live too far from a synagogue to participate regularly (I'd love to be nearer), no real awareness of the minutiae of religious practice, married to a non-Jew, son isn't circumsized, we do Hannukah and maybe RH in a good year but no real engagement with the calendar of Jewish life unless visiting (Israeli) relatives at the right time of year.

It may be projection - I feel not good enough to myself - but when you see people living an outwardly non-Jewish life like I describe above, what do you think of them if anything?

And shabbat shalom to you all!

saraandcat · 28/04/2023 13:56

Thank you for the threads, it's fascinating. I hope the thread continues after Shabbos as I'd love to learn more.

@Ortiguilla I'm so sorry for what your daughter has experienced, and to @Parkingt111 for your experience too. It feels like intolerance is rising in general, different situation to yours but there's been a rise in homophobic hate crime near me as well. I feel like it has got worse since 2016, views which I hadn't heard since the 80s/90s have come out of the woodwork again.

JeweyJew · 28/04/2023 14:00

Betaalpha · 28/04/2023 13:54

@JeweyJew you said Similarly, a non-Jew who's converted via reform etc, simply put, hasn't. They're still non-Jews. Again, no judgement, just fact.

how about a non-jew who has converted to become ultra orthodox, the jewest of the jews in your definition :) but ethnically non-jew? do you consider them a jew, say, after ten years?

I don't understand your question. If you've converted to Judaism you're a jew. Where does ethnicity come in?

LindyHopathon · 28/04/2023 14:15

"Similarly, a non-Jew who's converted via reform etc, simply put, hasn't. They're still non-Jews. Again, no judgement, just fact"

Do the women on the thread agree with this?
It seems a bleak prospect for some Jews. Not being "Jewish enough".
I think it's sad that anyone thinks like this.

JeweyJew · 28/04/2023 14:16

TheWayTheLightFalls · 28/04/2023 13:55

I think my timing is terrible, but fwiw - what do more observant (Orthodox) Jews think about "cultural Jews" like me? I was born Jewish and see myself as a Jew, went to a reform Jewish primary, speak Hebrew but live too far from a synagogue to participate regularly (I'd love to be nearer), no real awareness of the minutiae of religious practice, married to a non-Jew, son isn't circumsized, we do Hannukah and maybe RH in a good year but no real engagement with the calendar of Jewish life unless visiting (Israeli) relatives at the right time of year.

It may be projection - I feel not good enough to myself - but when you see people living an outwardly non-Jewish life like I describe above, what do you think of them if anything?

And shabbat shalom to you all!

What is it you want or expect to hear? You've abandoned your faith (not entirely your fault, taking into account where you grew up), you've married out and your son isn't circumcised. Are you looking for someone to tell you all this doesn't matter and there is no true way to practice Judaism?

Because you won't hear that from me or any other frum Jew for that matter.

monsteramunch · 28/04/2023 14:16

I'm curious as to the split of hours like in your family set up when it comes to responsibilities inside the home and work outside the home @JeweyJew?

The Jewish women on the thread who answered questions re their work confirmed they work full time and some mentioned that their husbands share non work responsibilities.

I wondered if you both work and if so, whether you do half the cooking, cleaning and childcare?