Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

It's a bot frustrating when posters can't seem to grasp the difference between a good person in general and a good Jew as relates to Judaism.

If you don't do Judaism what makes you specifically a good Jew?

After the way you've conducted yourself on the thread, and the way you speak to and about women, I doubt posters would want to share time with you to be honest. Your lack of self awareness and inflated self importance are not positive qualities.

I know several cases - everybody says - shame, but better now than later.

Do good Jewish men help their wives prepare for Shabbos?

You clearly think you are a good Jew.

Do you believe you are a genuinely good person?

Yep.

That's really kind, thank you.

Ironically, there's a belligerence about JeweyJew that really reminds me of my dad.

Am strongly certain that my dad's own disinterest stems from two things. Firstly, he was terribly dyslexic and he really struggled to read and write English, so Hebrew would have been a nightmare. I don't think religion was a big part of his family's life. His father was a shiker and liked to gamble too, so my dad had also left school at 13 to take over the family business and threw everything into work. That was his sole purpose. He was financially very successful but it came at price. We didn't have a good relationship and I never really felt he was there for me. This was something I really struggled with because from what I knew about Jews as a whole, family looked after their own.

For me, I feel a huge sense of embarrassment, shame even about my own lack of Jewishness. But, like I said, your words are kind and comforting and being able to share this is hugely cathartic. Thank you.

For me, I feel a huge sense of embarrassment, shame even about my own lack of Jewishness.

There is no need to feel shame for something beyond your control, and it's never too late to learn and get reacquainted with your religion and birthright.

Thank you. The schools are called King Solomon High School and Clore Tikva and Wohl primary schools. When I was researching schools for dc I didn't see any information that was very explicit about the degree of religious input they had, just that they had an Orthodox ethos, but I would assume that within the community there would be ways to find that out, or it would just be general knowledge. Their secondary school website states:

'King Solomon High School’s Foundation Body is the United Synagogue. The School embraces modern orthodox Jewish belief and practice and a unique feature of the school is its Jewish atmosphere. The School is keen on presenting a totally fresh approach to Jewish life. We teach the full range of national curriculum subjects in addition to providing a range of formal and informal Jewish educational programmes. We encourage our students to take their place as healthy, active and tolerant citizens in a multi-cultural society, accepting those who are different and caring for those who are in need.'

I do see children travelling to them by tube, so I assume they draw from families who don't all live locally, but I don't know what level of religious practice they had and was just interested, as a matter of idle curiosity. I decided they weren't the best fit for my dc so didn't apply there but I know they do accept non-Jewish pupils if they're not oversubscribed (I don't know how over subscribed they are).

I consider myself Jewish about all else., after all, I was born a Jew. It is something about me I can never change. This is why it bothers me when you consider me a bad Jew, because it feels like a slur on me as a person given I am first and foremost a Jew.

But, at the same time, I do understand the context you're framing the idea of a bad Jew. However, for some, it is something that they haven't had control of and why it grates.

Sorry, only answered the first question. Again it depends on where you are on the spectrum. Many people don't see one another for the week before the wedding, even if they see one another regularly before then. But in some of the more chassidic communities, you don't see each other often before the wedding, and there might be some chaperoning. Generally though, people meet and have dates in public places - so no chaperone, but not the sort of place where anything is going to happen. Before you get engaged, you often don't want the community knowing who you are dating - so often might not go to a kosher cafe or the like, but go to a hotel lobby in town. Once you are engaged, then it is public so more likely a public place like a kosher cafe. But again it varies with the spectrum.
Just to note, by the way, that I met DH in kiddush after shul - which is not that uncommon among the more modern orthodox. Both of us had used the shidduch system a bit, but only those who were considered more sympathetic to the modern orthodox - ie we controlled the process, not our parents (we were a bit older - post university, and turned to it after our social network was no longer throwing up options). A number of modern orthodox belong to mixed youth groups where you meet members of the opposite sex (even though schools tend to be separate). I know many marriages that came out of that. Also mixed events (although I met DH at the kiddush I mentioned, we really got talking at a Friday night dinner organised by a member of the shul for young modern orthodox singles). In New York there are (or at least were when I was dating there - I dated in New York before coming to England) a lot of these. Often weekends (called a shabbaton) away for young singles with the hope that one might meet someone compatible that way. Again, this is really modern orthodox territory, rather than those who are more yeshivishe. There is an Israeli television (?) programme - called Srugim - which is all about the modern orthodox community dating in Jerusalem - that for my husband and I really speaks to our experiences (although this one is set in the Israeli community, there is an English speaking community who live in exactly the same area, and both DH and I dated in that area as well, and it is just so true to the life as it was - well it is set about 10 years after we were dating, but very close).
As you can tell from the above, DH and I were a fair bit older when we finally met, and had both dated extensively without finding the right person until we finally did (and it took quite a while for both of us, particularly DH, to decide that was the case - we dated off and on for about 4 years - more off than on, you can't keep that up with all the rules if you are actually going to be dating for that period of time - but one or the other of us kept calling it off until we finally didn't). Now coming up to our 24th wedding anniversary!

Well, you have made me feel both embarrassed and ashamed. So thank you for that.

R' Zusha's famous point - Hashem will not ask me why I was not Moshe Rabeinu, but will ask why I was not Zusha. What is this yardstick of 'good' or 'bad' Jew? Everyone has their own unique tafkid and it is not for me to look at their external behaviour and judge them as good or bad.

It does not matter how much I think I know someone, I am not Hashem, I cannot know every factor that affects their religious observance, the intimate details of their lives, their internal world, all the factors that make them who they are and how they live their lives. How can I judge their religious observance, and categorise that in black and white as good or bad Jews? I am not Hashem, and this is not my job.

It goes beyond dan lkaf zchus for me. If someone has gone through a religious trauma, gives up all practice as a result, and maybe keeps one tiny thing (lighting candles or something), maybe this was their tafkid? Maybe this is the sum of what Hashem wants from them? I cannot even stand close to the place of the men and women who came out of the holocaust; I could never say that they were a 'bad Jew' if they gave up everything, even if they were extremely virulently anti anything religious; how could I dare have the audacity to question whether they were a good Jew or not?

How many cases have there been where respected members of the community were exposed for crimes that are antithetical to our values. Until the point of exposure you would consider them a good Jew for (externally) keeping the rest of the practices. What about after? Are they not a good Jew? Were they a good Jew before? Who is deciding this?

I would hate for someone to go through my practices and decide whether I was a good Jew or not according to their yardstick. Let me do my own soul searching on Yom Kippur and see if I measure up to what potential I have. I don't need to do that for anyone else.

Mine is making the whole of Shabbos while I work (ok post on mumsnet), and yeah he knows I am posting, lol. I wouldn't think he was a good husband if he didn't do his share! (Ok, we cheated, I bought almost everything in, so he's mainly cleaning the apartment, and looking after the kids, but still. He's a good egg.)

Jokes aside, yes, a good Jewish man will take an active role in the home.

I have asked a few times about inheritance and also googled it too. From what I have read if there are sons then the daughters do not inherit at all
Is this correct and followed by orthodox Jews or have a I misunderstood from my limited understanding

In biblical times I believe that is what happened with the land, but nowadays the inheritance is usually divided equally among sons and daughters.

@jewishorthomum thank you!

I agree too. I am Jewish, grew up modern Orthodox in another country but moved to the UK many years ago. There are many ways to be a good Jew, keeping Torah etc is only one of the ways. Men like JeweyJew put me off staying frum, the misogyny and judgemental attitude of men like that is repellant. Judaism is a beautiful religion, the individual relationship that it encourages with G-d is one of its best aspects. Thank you for starting this AMA.

Tends to follow English law, or law of the land. I know my parents have written a will and I will get equal to my siblings.

Would be usual secular inheritance laws as far as I have ever seen and known. Not an area I thankfully know much about.

@jewishorthomum can you confirm if that's right please?

@jewishorthomum cross posted sorry!

@EllaDisenchanted thank you for clarifyingv

Pretty much never followed in practice. The gemara requires a significant portion of the estate to be given at the time of marriage as a dowry, and while that isn't exactly done these days, in effect it can be considered being done - or as in anticipation of a possible marriage in the future (if the daughter is single). Also all single daughters are required to be supported by the estate until they marry, so that has to be allowed for, and often a significant portion of the estate can be treated as given as a gift just before death, or some rely on the local law. Even in cases where the parents don't arrange it - I know of one prominent case where it ended up going to Beit Din, and the boy in the case was arguing that he should get the whole estate on the grounds you claim, and the Beit Din was having none of it - but I think what he got was technically "the inheritance" and what she got was for this and that and the other and somehow it just added up to all this money which just happened to be a significant chunk of what was available.

Oh I get what you mean now. Let me clarify, when I said bad Jew I wasn't judging anyone as people. Judgement is up to Hashem, and most of us don't live up to our potential and/or stumble at times.

What I was trying to say, albeit perhaps not as clearly as I should have, is that if someone doesn't believe in Hashem and His Torah, they're not doing Judaism properly. This isn't a judgement rather a statement of fact.

I keep coming back to the analogy because I think it's apt. I could have the utmost sympathy with a TW's struggles and traumas as a person, and really respect them, but the fact remains that they're a man. That's not a judgement but a statement of fact.

Saying things like all TW are predators is judgement and condemnation, but just the dry fact that all TW are men is not.

Jews are Jews. If they struggle with religion, that's for Hashem to judge. But the fact remains that the only authentic form(s) of Judaism is Orthodox.

Someone born Jewish who belongs to 'alternative' streams is sadly not following authentic Judaism. It might not be their fault and it's certainly not up to me to judge, but the dry fact remains that they're not following Judaism.

Similarly, a non-Jew who's converted via reform etc, simply put, hasn't. They're still non-Jews. Again, no judgement, just fact.

Well, if I had any questions about whether a certain kind of tone-deaf male pontification is a cross-religion thing, I certainly have my answers now.

Perhaps out of all the things that bring women of different faiths and backgrounds together, it is the prevalence of mansplaining.

Thanks to the women who have made this and the previous thread such a warm and informative read.

Agreed. DH is a much better cook than I am, and tends to do a lot of the more fancy cooking - certainly for Yom Tov and when we have guests. There are lots of time demands on a Jewish man - funny story, when DS was, I think, about 2 or 3 years old, we went to see one of these inner city farms - and there were a number of chickens and the like with their newly hatched babies. DS didn't know the difference between chickens and ducks at that point, so called everyhing duck (so shows how young he was) - and he noticed that there was just one adult to lots of babies - and he said to both of us (we were both there) - "Are those mummy Ducks or Papi Ducks" - then, he thought about it and said - (Maybe I asked him what he thought, I don't remember) - "I think those are Mummy Ducks - and the Papi Ducks are in shul [synagogue]" - ie the logical reason he could think that the Papi Ducks were not around looking after the baby ducks was because they were in shul. But in our house, when DH is around he is very hands on in all aspects.