Page 16 | Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

mirah2 · 2023-04-27T16:10:17+00:00

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes... New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post. I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime. I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage. Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember: - this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read - please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that. Go forth and post!

FirstTimeNameChanger · 28/04/2023 11:49

@JeweyJew I really strongly disagree with you, but I know we won't agree and I don't want to disrupt such a lovely thread so we'll leave it there

jewishorthomum · 28/04/2023 11:49

amcha · 28/04/2023 11:36

Actually the views on abortion in halacha are really quite broad - and one of the things I find frustrating about England is that we generally only hear the view of Rav Moshe Feinstein (a very prominent American rabbi) - which is a legitimate view, but it is not the only view. The views of many Israeli rabbis, such as the Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Ovadiah Yosef, and many more - are much, much more lenient on abortion than this. My DD in her school came home with the abortion is murder view from her halacha teacher - which lead me to do up a whole set of sources for her and her friends which gave her an idea of the spectrum of opinion on this. Nobody says abortion on demand, but if you follow the Tzitz Eliezer, there is no reason not to do antenatal testing - and every support to abort if there are serious concerns. It is one of the areas of diversity within rabbinic opinion - but (in my view unfortunately) not as widely taught as I believe it should be.

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Fascinating, thanks for explaining. I fully agree with you here. Abortion laws are complex.
I know that R' Asher Weiss of Israel, a Rabbi with medical expertise, is lenient with abortions in the case of serious defect that is incompatible with life.
Either way each situation would be assessed case by case. And if a women would like the testing done she can.

amcha · 28/04/2023 11:51

Fink · 28/04/2023 11:34

I appreciate I may not get an answer now until after Sabbath, I have two separate questions:

regarding women who need specialist advice about fertility (it was mentioned on the first thread that the couple could see specialists within the community who could advise on fertility problems) - I have a 23 day cycle and I bleed for the first 12 days, probably more if I had to check internally. So I basically wouldn't be able to be clean (I can't remember the Hebrew word for non-niddah, if it has been mentioned, I do realise that "clean" is a loaded term and that we're talking ritual not moral or bodily cleanliness) ever or maybe for a very short time each month. In practice, what would a Jewish fertility specialist say to someone like me who was Jewish? Would they be advised not to marry if they knew about it before marriage? Would the authorities give an exception to the niddah rules - and if so would it be seen as breaking a commandment to fulfil a greater commandment (to be fruitful) or would they try to say that it wasn't breaking a commandment at all because of XYZ? I'm just interested how the fertility experts can actually help.
Regarding the Torah, what is the Orthodox understanding of how it came to be written? Do Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox accept modern scholarship that it was composed by multiple authors from different traditions over a long period of time, or is it seen as having been personally written by Moses? Is this something which differs within different Jewish communities?

Taking some time out from Shabbas preparation and probably need to get back but:

I am not an expert here (and I think neither are most of the other women posting), but I think there are lots of options - especially these days. I have been told that there may be drugs around now that help out (ie extend the cycle etc) but of course that is all relatively new. There are other leniencies - but the key thing is, the more leniencies you need, the broader shoulders you need - there is an idea that anybody can say no, it takes much greater learning to be able to find a work-around to say yes (goes back in a way to the eruv discussion). And the leniency would be tailored to the particular case, so that it is almost impossible to say what means would be utilised without consulting a great rabbi (and this might mean not even a local English rabbi, but one of the great names - these days mostly in Israel, there used to be in America, but not so many anymore). ie the more leniencies you need, the higher up you need to go - so it is really hard to discuss any particular case. Note that another option might be IVF for children, and then taking contraceptive to stop the periods most of the time to enable normal relations - but again, the solutions would need to be tailored to the needs of the couple. Regarding getting married - the key thing is that it would be appropriate to have full disclosure before marriage - but I don't think anybody would say don't get married, you would just need to find someone prepared to go into this with their eyes open.
Short answer - no. No acceptance of what is called "modern scholarship" which Orthodox Jews completely reject. Absolutely no acceptance of multiple authorship. Lots of Orthodox Jewish scholarship as to why most of this modern scholarship doesn't make sense/tries to find things that are not there.

jewishorthomum · 28/04/2023 11:51

@JeweyJew No Jew is bad. That is a very awful thing to say!

EllaDisenchanted · 28/04/2023 11:53

jewishorthomum · 28/04/2023 11:51

@JeweyJew No Jew is bad. That is a very awful thing to say!

agreed

LindyHopathon · 28/04/2023 11:54

"My guess - and it's just a guess - is that she wasn't in any danger. Illness in itself isn't reason to break the Yom Kippur fast, only such illness that is exacerbated by fasting"

Did you even read the post about this woman who was having a miscarriage? You know, before you stepped in to give your valuable advice?
The woman was in severe pain and bleeding heavily.
I once attended a Jewish woman at home on an obstetric flying squad call in an ambulance.
She nearly died from loss of blood due to a miscarriage at nine weeks.

JeweyJew · 28/04/2023 11:55

jewishorthomum · 28/04/2023 11:51

@JeweyJew No Jew is bad. That is a very awful thing to say!

Please don't sacrifice truth for likability. You know full well that Jews who don't keep the Torah, especially when it's done theologically rather than slipping up despite knowing what's right and wrong, are simply not being good Jews. Namely they're not doing Judaism properly.

Flapjacker48 · 28/04/2023 11:56

@JeweyJew Your post is grossly offensive and it not acceptable to call others "bad Jews" - being Jewish does give a carte blanch to post such statements

JeweyJew · 28/04/2023 11:56

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Original poster

mirah2 · 28/04/2023 11:57

mirah2 · 27/04/2023 22:42

To be blunt - an Orthodox family wouldn't want their daughters hearing other teenage girls chatting about 'oh, so and so has such a fit bum, I really want to shag him'. Or words to that effect.

I'm not up to date with the latest slang. But I went to a non-Jewish girl's school. I know the talk.

Sorry

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I'm focusing on Shabbat now, but dipping in for a follow-up as it was bothering me.

To be clear - I would never ever use the language I wrote above in real life. Avoiding crude language is a basic for Orthodox Jews. It would not be tolerated in our home, and I would feel very uncomfortable being around others who talk this way. Even typing it out felt wrong. I only did so to make a point about the type of 'teen talk' under discussion.

I'm very much at the Modern Orthodox end of the spectrum. We interact more with the outside world and have slightly broader boundaries, but by outside standards we are still very socially conservative. This is not just a Haredi/Chasidic trait.

Socially, this means that while we may have working relationships and even some friends in the non-Jewish world, we are much more comfortable socialising within an Orthodox setting. If I had to choose between my kids socialising with Haredi Jewish kids or non-Jewish kids, 9 times out of 10 I would choose the former.

Be back later, but please be patient.

OP posts:

LindyHopathon · 28/04/2023 11:59

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Yikes

Parkingt111 · 28/04/2023 12:01

@JeweyJew i asked a question about inheritance laws but I think it got missed so maybe you can help out. We often see on mumsnet how sometimes children are disinherited, does jewish law have a set amount that each family member should recieve in inheritance or is it up to each individual how they would like their wealth to be inherited?

legrandcolbert · 28/04/2023 12:01

FirstTimeNameChanger · 28/04/2023 11:41

In terms of Judaism, these people are 'bad Jews', ie they don't keep Judaic law, but Jews nonetheless

@JeweyJew I find that so insulting, and a really negative message on what is a very positive and informative thread. My family are not bad Jews

Agreed.

My mother died when I was young, she had always been the one who took the lead. My father had little interest in the religious or traditions, so although we did still keep kosher, everything else stopped. I didn't go to JFS, instead went to a private independent school. Zero Jews in my year and few in the school as a whole, so being Jewish was incredibly lonely. Through no real fault of my own, I found myself cut off from everything. Although Jewish friends of my mother had reached out to me when she died, my dad didn't like them, nor they him, so it was too difficult to navigate.

Now I am in my 40s, and with much help and encouragement from some Jewish friends I met shortly before the pandemic and trying to bridge the gap. But it is really hard.

I have spent much of my life feeling like I don't fit and always took comfort from the fact that I'm Jewish and other Jews will always accept me. So reading what you have said has rather been a slap in the face.

Parkingt111 · 28/04/2023 12:03

Is there a reason given why touching between the spouses is not allowed during childbirth? Particularly as its not a sexual touch or is it just an accepted ruling?

LindyHopathon · 28/04/2023 12:05

You'll all be getting ready for the Sabbath soon so may I say thank you to the women who have answered all the questions.
I hope this thread will continue tomorrow evening or on Sunday.
It's been really interesting and helpful.

LindyHopathon · 28/04/2023 12:10

Parkingt111 · 28/04/2023 12:03

Is there a reason given why touching between the spouses is not allowed during childbirth? Particularly as its not a sexual touch or is it just an accepted ruling?

I think it's because the woman bleeds during labour, which renders her a niddah.

EllaDisenchanted · 28/04/2023 12:10

legrandcolbert · 28/04/2023 12:01

Agreed.

My mother died when I was young, she had always been the one who took the lead. My father had little interest in the religious or traditions, so although we did still keep kosher, everything else stopped. I didn't go to JFS, instead went to a private independent school. Zero Jews in my year and few in the school as a whole, so being Jewish was incredibly lonely. Through no real fault of my own, I found myself cut off from everything. Although Jewish friends of my mother had reached out to me when she died, my dad didn't like them, nor they him, so it was too difficult to navigate.

Now I am in my 40s, and with much help and encouragement from some Jewish friends I met shortly before the pandemic and trying to bridge the gap. But it is really hard.

I have spent much of my life feeling like I don't fit and always took comfort from the fact that I'm Jewish and other Jews will always accept me. So reading what you have said has rather been a slap in the face.

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I'm so sorry, that must have been really upsetting to read :( . The doors are open, you are welcome and wanted, please don't be put off by one anonymous poster. I'm sure the other orthodox Jews on the thread will agree with me.

jewishorthomum · 28/04/2023 12:10

@JeweyJew Perhaps go help your wife with Shabbos prep?

Fink · 28/04/2023 12:11

There are some state Jewish schools near me (Gants Hill-ish), voluntary aided so equivalent to standard Catholic schools that I'm used to. You can apply to them on the standard application forms, with preference given to Jewish children:

What sort of families would send their children to a school like that? I don't see any ultra-Orthodox families locally (like I see in SH for example), would they be used by modern Orthodox families like @mirah2 's, or non-Orthodox? Would they been seen as preferable to secular state schools? Are they seen as less than private Jewish schools which would (I presume) have more of the day devoted to religious study?

MenopauseSucks · 28/04/2023 12:14

I watched David Baddiel's 'Jews Don't Count' and was horrified to hear about the security drills that children in UK Jewish schools have to practise.

With that in mind, I've also just read on Google that there is a Jewish Community Protective Security grant - a grant started in 2015 - for synagogues & schools which will be £15 million from 2023-2024.

Do these measures affect your daily life? And those of your family?
Can you remember a time before such security measures were necessary for the Jewish Community in the UK?

FirstTimeNameChanger · 28/04/2023 12:14

@legrandcolbert I have also moved in and out of Judaism, although maybe easier for me as I have observant family members. I am sorry for the loss of your mum, but in my experience that does not have to mean a loss of Judaism. I have always felt welcomed by the Jewish community when I have reached out, and found that other Jews do accept me on the whole, and are kind to me and my children when I have asked to be included in, for example, religious festivals. I thought it was a mitzvah to do so.

I think on the whole we are a persecuted people who should stand together, and mainly do so.

jewishorthomum · 28/04/2023 12:16

legrandcolbert · 28/04/2023 12:01

Agreed.

My mother died when I was young, she had always been the one who took the lead. My father had little interest in the religious or traditions, so although we did still keep kosher, everything else stopped. I didn't go to JFS, instead went to a private independent school. Zero Jews in my year and few in the school as a whole, so being Jewish was incredibly lonely. Through no real fault of my own, I found myself cut off from everything. Although Jewish friends of my mother had reached out to me when she died, my dad didn't like them, nor they him, so it was too difficult to navigate.

Now I am in my 40s, and with much help and encouragement from some Jewish friends I met shortly before the pandemic and trying to bridge the gap. But it is really hard.

I have spent much of my life feeling like I don't fit and always took comfort from the fact that I'm Jewish and other Jews will always accept me. So reading what you have said has rather been a slap in the face.

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Please disregard the offensive comments above. You are very brave for trying to connect back to your roots. And as an orthodox Jew I can confidentially tell you that we do not view you as bad or wrong in any way at all. I'm appalled that that has been said.
And as another poster said you are very much welcome and wanted by the Jewish community. If you lived near me I'd invite you to a Shabbos dinner with us so that you could learn more if you wished.

JeweyJew · 28/04/2023 12:18

legrandcolbert · 28/04/2023 12:01

Agreed.

My mother died when I was young, she had always been the one who took the lead. My father had little interest in the religious or traditions, so although we did still keep kosher, everything else stopped. I didn't go to JFS, instead went to a private independent school. Zero Jews in my year and few in the school as a whole, so being Jewish was incredibly lonely. Through no real fault of my own, I found myself cut off from everything. Although Jewish friends of my mother had reached out to me when she died, my dad didn't like them, nor they him, so it was too difficult to navigate.

Now I am in my 40s, and with much help and encouragement from some Jewish friends I met shortly before the pandemic and trying to bridge the gap. But it is really hard.

I have spent much of my life feeling like I don't fit and always took comfort from the fact that I'm Jewish and other Jews will always accept me. So reading what you have said has rather been a slap in the face.

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Of course other Jews will accept you. I stated several times that once a Jew always a Jew. We would love it if you came back into the fold, and Hashem is waiting for just as He waits for all Jews.

What's that got to do with what I said about good/bad Jews?

In fact, let me put the question back to you, in what way do you see yourself as a good Jew rather than just a good person? Meaning how are you doing Judaism properly, as opposed to just being a nice person in general?

EllaDisenchanted · 28/04/2023 12:19

Fink · 28/04/2023 12:11

There are some state Jewish schools near me (Gants Hill-ish), voluntary aided so equivalent to standard Catholic schools that I'm used to. You can apply to them on the standard application forms, with preference given to Jewish children:

What sort of families would send their children to a school like that? I don't see any ultra-Orthodox families locally (like I see in SH for example), would they be used by modern Orthodox families like @mirah2 's, or non-Orthodox? Would they been seen as preferable to secular state schools? Are they seen as less than private Jewish schools which would (I presume) have more of the day devoted to religious study?

Different schools for different degrees of religious practice, people send to the school that most closely aligns with their values. Unless I knew the name of the school, I don't know what type of people would send there.

I sent to schools that align with Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch's approach of Torah Im Derech Eretz, (that was the school ethos) which has a variety of connotations but basically in this case means Torah learning, development of middos (good character) and secular learning were important and that was what they were nurturing.

I would not see a school that has not passed ofsted, and does not deliver an excellent secular and religious education as preferable or better at all.

JeweyJew · 28/04/2023 12:20

And if you want to come for a Shabbos meal, by all means. You wouldn't be the first non-religious Jew to grace our table.