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Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

1000 replies

mirah2 · 27/04/2023 17:10

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

  • this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
  • please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
EllaDisenchanted · 28/04/2023 08:39

Fink · 28/04/2023 08:22

With Sabbath coming you may not have time to answer today! But I have questions about Sabbath observance:

Basically, what things that are fun/entertainment are ok on Sabbath and which aren't?

Can you play board games, or does setting up the game count as work?
Can you cook for fun, if it's a hobby (I would guess not, given the very tight rules on meal preparation, but just asking)?
Could you watch TV/listen to music? Would it make a difference if the TV was on a timer or happened to already be on when Sabbath started?

If you happened to be alone for Sabbath or a holy day, what could you do with your time? I guess when you're within the community and family you might not have time for tv or music and such, but if you were alone ...

Are there rules around sexual relations on holy days?

My last answer for at least the next few hours:

Work isn't the English meaning of the word. It is related to 39 activities that were involved in building the mishkan (don't know translation) in the desert. We were commanded to rest on the Shabbos and refrain from doing the work involved in the construction or putting up of the mishkan, so anything connected to those activities is considered work and the laws basically are derived from that.

Board games, socialising, etc fine. Some people don't play games involving fake money e.g. monopoly. Construction toys and puzzles, fine. There are rules involving sorting which affect how it is put away.

TV and music definitely not. Putting it on a timer - you wouldn't, having the TV on would be against the spirit of Shabbos, and it would utterly destroy the atmosphere. I have had my baby accidentally knock it on before and we couldn't turn it off, let me tell you fireman sam on repeat does not make for a relaxing day! We covered it with a tablecloth.

No to cooking, meal preparation (assembly) involves lots of detailed laws.

I would read. I am a massive bookworm , or rest.

It is a mitzva to have sexual relations on Friday night. It is often a very close time for couples, when they can stop, nothing interferes, and they can reconnect. I very often spent friday nights playing game with my husband after the meal when the kids were little. Pleasure in life is encouraged. The aim of Judaism is not to divorce spirituality and religion from daily life, but to infuse it into every aspect, and to elevate the mundane. Sex and intimacy is no different.

Ortiguilla · 28/04/2023 08:41

brogueish · 28/04/2023 07:23

Thank you again to all the interesting and considered responses. Much appreciated.

@mirah2 @jewishorthomum @Ortiguilla @EllaDisenchanted
Given the importance of keeping the sexes separate, I wonder how you feel about an orthodox man actively contributing to this thread. Particularly in the first thread, it was discussed the efforts men will go to to avoid looking at it being in proximity to women that aren’t his wife. As someone who doesn’t understand the nuance, it feels very odd for someone to actively put themself in the centre of a group of women talking. It’d be lovely to hear your views on this - and any other orthodox women on this thread, apologies for not tagging everyone.

Morning @brogueish

Another day posting on this thread instead of getting work done!

Just to clarify, I'm not Orthodox, although my grandparents were, and my parents were raised Orthodox. They switched to Masorti in the 70s (I think) and we were raised in that community, which has many similarities with the Orthodox shuls.

However, I am now barely practising and I married out. My children do consider themselves Jewish and we do celebrate festivals, Friday night etc.

In terms of the male commenter on these threads - I am not the biggest fan of men on MN generally, not on principle, but because in practice they so often behave the way this particular poster has done- lecturing, rudeness, condescension, insisting that they know best, talking over and for women.

In this case, telling me and every other non-Orthodox Jew that we're not even Jewish, which is incredibly insulting as well as wrong.

I find it particularly rude when it's women from a community like the ultra Orthodox, who often don't get to speak for themselves. However, I think it's an example of typical male behaviour, rather than specifically Jewish male behaviour.

Fink · 28/04/2023 08:44

Another follow-up question: @jewishorthomum said that because Abraham came before the Law he wasn't bound by it (makes sense!), does Judaism have a concept of Natural Law? i.e. actions that are commanded/ forbidden for all humans regardless of religion or culture? Since Judaism believes that righteous non-Jews can be in a right relationship with God ('be saved' to use Christian terminology), what are the boundaries around what constitutes orthopraxy for non-Jews? Are the 10 Commandments, for example, considered binding on everyone?

Ortiguilla · 28/04/2023 08:46

TheShellBeach · 27/04/2023 21:27

When you've eaten a meal which contains meat, do you have to wait for a while before you can have a cup of tea or coffee afterwards (assuming you take milk)?

Yes. My grandparents kept this rule strictly and e.g. if we had had chicken as a main course, they wouldn't have ice cream or cream afterwards. Non-dairy desserts/ice cream were really widely available in Jewish shops long before it became a popular thing more generally.

mirah2 · 28/04/2023 08:47

HamptonCaught · 28/04/2023 05:27

What jobs/careers do you and your husband have?

We are both university graduates (and have studied beyond BA level) and work in professional jobs for non-Jewish companies.

OP posts:
sadienurse2 · 28/04/2023 08:50

Thanks again to the wonderful ladies answering.

  1. I followed a rabbetzin(sp) on Instagram who has a young disabled son who lives in a children's home in SH. People questioned her on this and she said this isn't uncommon in her community. Obviously this is very unusual across the UK. I looked into it and there is quite a lot of academic research into the stigma of childhood disability and the ultra orthodox community. Why is this? Surely if you believe that God created the child like this then there is a specific reason and shouldn't be stigmatised?
  1. In the TV documentaries (which were all very positive IMO) quite a few of the families had mothers help/nannies/cleaners, but these were all non Jewish. I assumed a jew would be preferable as they would be more familiar with your habits/practices, and to give employment to your 'own'. Are these type of jobs seen as 'lowly' within the community?
  1. I follow a blogger from SH who claims that the Jewish Community (specifically the rabbis and those at the top) has become a money making rackateer where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Things like having to give the rabbi a 'backhander' for certain blessings etc and some charge a lot of money. He also writes a lot about the nepotismand corruption within schools and Jewish housing associations that favour their own family and friends. Is this an issue, or is he an outlier?

Many thanks

Parkingt111 · 28/04/2023 08:50

@EllaDisenchanted thank you for sharing your marriage story it was a very insightful read. As a Conservative Muslim mine is similar. Most people would be quite shocked to know I only met my husband once prior to marriage but our families also did the background work to check if we would be compatible before meeting and it does make a big difference. Happily married for 8 years now

mirah2 · 28/04/2023 08:55

brogueish · 28/04/2023 07:23

Thank you again to all the interesting and considered responses. Much appreciated.

@mirah2 @jewishorthomum @Ortiguilla @EllaDisenchanted
Given the importance of keeping the sexes separate, I wonder how you feel about an orthodox man actively contributing to this thread. Particularly in the first thread, it was discussed the efforts men will go to to avoid looking at it being in proximity to women that aren’t his wife. As someone who doesn’t understand the nuance, it feels very odd for someone to actively put themself in the centre of a group of women talking. It’d be lovely to hear your views on this - and any other orthodox women on this thread, apologies for not tagging everyone.

Also last answer for a few hours (or possibly late Saturday night).

Socially, I do chat with other frum men (including Rabbis). I certainly don't have a problem with interacting with men on an internet forum.

Having said that, I do find it deeply strange that a Chasidic man is on MN, in a thread aimed at women, talking about very intimate woman's issues like nidda, bedikot, mikveh and women's perspectives on this. My own husband is on MN and also finds it strange when I described this. He would never dare do this himself.

Other contributions on Orthodox Jewish life and Chasidic life in particular? Fine. Possibly some comment on the halachic background to nidda and how halacha/Rabbis work in general? Fine. But nidda is very much seen as a 'women's area' and I would much rather just have the conversation between us women. We are more than capable of doing so ourselves without male involvement.

OP posts:
MrsWojadobakowsky · 28/04/2023 09:03

SittingNextToIt · 27/04/2023 17:52

Yes this.

I wondered too. Join in but no need to take over.

amcha · 28/04/2023 09:07

TheShellBeach · 28/04/2023 01:30

But there's a difference between getting advice from a doctor who is professionally qualified, and a rabbi, who just decides on things according to custom.

As mentioned, this also requires a lot of training. Rabbis who do this are highly trained, they spend years on it (most communal rabbis will refer to those who have this more specialised training). There is no university giving a degree, but there are concepts of smicha (the Rabbinic degree that allows someone to call themselves rabbi) and shimush, meaning you have studied under somebody very knowledgeable. I don't see why you can't therefore call such Rabbis (and now yoetzets) professionals. They are often the people who pick up some underlying health issues because they know when things are usual or unusual. One of the reasons that part of the yoetzet course is done in conjunction with doctors and other medical professionals in this area, so they know what to watch out for.

LazJaz · 28/04/2023 09:10

@mirah2 he is three

TheShellBeach · 28/04/2023 09:11

I love the description of arranged dating.
It sounds really sensible.
Have any of you dated a man who you were not keen on, but who was keen on you? How does that work?
I mean, would it happen that he might keep asking you for more dates, even though you'd made it clear you weren't interested?

With regard to weddings, who pays? Bride's parents or groom's, or shared equally?
How do you choose the venue?

Do you read the endless MN threads about weddings, where people are complaining about not being invited etc?
Are children usually welcome?

I watched a brilliant documentary about Jewish people in Manchester once. The guests were segregated according to sex. Does that still happen? I'm guessing it does, so that you don't all have to worry about looking at the opposite sex.

Flev · 28/04/2023 09:12

Thank you all so much for your answers, I've finally caught up with both threads. I've learned loads, and it's prompted another question for me, if you don't mind. Please forgive any awkwardness on my phrasing, I'm certainly not intending any offense by it.

You've talked lots about the importance of keeping a lot of laws, but I assume that occasionally someone will accidentally (or possibly knowingly) break one - what's the process then in terms of atonement /forgiveness? I know you have a festival focusing on atonement, so do you sort of "store up" everything until then, or is there something else you say or do beforehand?

Whichwhatnow · 28/04/2023 09:14

I think this was asked on the previous thread but I didn't see an answer (sorry if I missed it!).

Does adoption from outside the Jewish faith happen in the Jewish community? if so, would the adopted child be considered Jewish? Would they be required to convert and if so would there be an age limit on this (for example - adopted as a baby = automatically Jewish, adopted as a 10 y/o = needs to covert)?

Very interesting AMA, thank you to all (or should I say nearly all!) contributors!

Ortiguilla · 28/04/2023 09:18

@HalloweenGhost ·
I first wanted wanted to ask @jewishorthomum on the first thread whether you have many friends if other faiths. Then saw your post about half way in thread 1 about how Jews might feel about non Jews- a bit nervous, because of anti semitism.

Please forgive my naivety, but why wouldn't Jews feel comfortable in their own country? Why would they (you?) imagine people like me (christian) would hold anti semitic views?

Again I imagine I'm being naive so this is why I'm asking, but when I look back at history, didn't we go to war with Hitler because he was a racist, anti-semitic idiot (who was also trying to invade poland)? Does that not give some reassurance that Christians/other non Jews might be on your side? Even if I've got my facts wrong, I don't understand why some people see such a gulf, particularly between Jews and christians - for me as a Christian, the number 1 guy was a jew, and we have the same God, even sharing the old testament. Yes there are loads of traditions that differ, costumes, holy days, and other practices, but I do still see an awful lot in common.

I apologise if this post is offensive, it is intended as anything but.

I'm not the OP, but having grown up in a completely Jewish (albeit not Orthodox) family, I can offer you some answers here. I think you would probably be really shocked at how widespread and pernicious antisemitism is in the UK.

Every generation of my family since coming here just over 100 years ago has been on the receiving end of antisemitic comments and insults, and in some cases violence. I posted in the last thread that my 12-year-old daughter was kicked and called a "Jewish b*tch" at school last week, and the boy told her that Hitler had the right idea.

I will say that the Allies absolutely did NOT go to war in order to protect the Jews - that had nothing to do with it. Hitler was popular with a lot of establishment figures here (including Edward VIII, and there's a photo of the Queen and Princess Margaret with their parents all doing the Nazi salute) If you read British literature of the 1920s and 1930s, the antisemitism is loud and clear.

I married a very white British man with a Methodist background (although not really religious). My ex was from a similar background (C of E). Also, my friends are probably about 50/50 Jewish/not Jewish. So I'm well aware that there are many Christians who do not hold antisemitic views.

The antisemitism I've heard throughout my life has mostly been pretty low level, but consistent. I am often asked where are you from, where are you REALLY from, where are your parents from, etc (I definitely don't pass as white British). Little comments, jokes and digs about Jewish noses, Jews being mean/greedy/ugly, Jews having too much power. Being told that no Jews died in 9/11 (the implication being that it was a Jewish plot). Being ordered to declare my views on Israel before being allowed to speak at a student meeting.

That all ramped up a LOT over the past few years because of a certain political leader and their followers. I really, really, really don't want this thread to get dragged into that discussion, especially as it's Friday so all the Jewish voices are going to go quiet on this thread in a few hours. But I will say that things which were only ever said behind closed doors or hinted at have become acceptable to say openly and I have never encountered open hostility and racism to the extent that I have within the past 10 years or so.

brogueish · 28/04/2023 09:19

@Ortiguilla @mirah2

Thank you for your responses :)

Ortiguilla · 28/04/2023 09:20

@TheShellBeach I can't speak for the Ultra Orthodox, but i have never even heard of, let alone been to, a child-free Jewish wedding. I don't think such a thing exists (I might be wrong). Being Jewish is about family, and everyone is part of that, from babies to the very old. I spent most of my childhood going to weddings and bar/batmitzvahs.

LazJaz · 28/04/2023 09:21

@Mangotime thank you for your kind response
our son is just three so few of his own intrinsic interests (really it’s just farms at the moment tbh!)

i will research what might be available near us - thank you!

LindyHopathon · 28/04/2023 09:27

amcha · 28/04/2023 09:07

As mentioned, this also requires a lot of training. Rabbis who do this are highly trained, they spend years on it (most communal rabbis will refer to those who have this more specialised training). There is no university giving a degree, but there are concepts of smicha (the Rabbinic degree that allows someone to call themselves rabbi) and shimush, meaning you have studied under somebody very knowledgeable. I don't see why you can't therefore call such Rabbis (and now yoetzets) professionals. They are often the people who pick up some underlying health issues because they know when things are usual or unusual. One of the reasons that part of the yoetzet course is done in conjunction with doctors and other medical professionals in this area, so they know what to watch out for.

I agree with you. Of course rabbis are professionals.
May I just clarify that I was taking issue with the male poster who was being condescending towards me and other women on this thread. He was saying that showing a stained bedikot cloth to a rabbi was the same as consulting a doctor.
My point was that women see their rabbi frequently and socially, which might lead to embarrassment. And in fact, some women did say that they preferred to deal with a trained woman on this issue.

I confess that I was put out when that man posted that he thought I had some kind of agenda when I asked the original question. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have read a most interesting book about Jewish femininity and I just wanted to ask some questions.

Parkingt111 · 28/04/2023 09:27

@Ortiguilla I am very sorry to hear of the racism you have had to encounter and it should not be happening but I don't see how it is very different to the racism many other communities face. I am a minority in a minority, a South Asian Muslim woman who wears a veil (face covering) and I have faced racism for most of my life as has many others that I know, I remember being told to f**k off pack to Pakistan as a child by grown adult men walking past, just yesterday a lady walked past me did a double take and said 'woah' and crossed the road. I have lost count the amount of times I have been called a terrorist. However I also have many many positive experiences aswell as friends who are not Muslim as do my children.

Parkingt111 · 28/04/2023 09:30

@Ortiguilla the reason I mention the above is because there has been alot of talk on this thread how Jewish people face consistent racism sadly but I see the same for other communities too just like my own

Ortiguilla · 28/04/2023 09:40

Parkingt111 · 28/04/2023 09:30

@Ortiguilla the reason I mention the above is because there has been alot of talk on this thread how Jewish people face consistent racism sadly but I see the same for other communities too just like my own

I don't doubt it for a moment, and didn't mean to imply otherwise - I'm so sorry for all that you have been through.

I'm just giving my first-hand experience, and obviously as a thread about Jewish life it's going to focus more on Jewish experiences!

I'm really sorry you have to put up with all that too, and I'm glad that you, like me, have also made lots of friends from outside your community. I have a Muslim friend who wears a hijab and I was very happy the first time I went over to her house (our kids are friends at school) and she didn't wear the hijab while I was visiting. I was touched that she felt comfortable enough to do that with me.

PinkPlantCase · 28/04/2023 09:54

Some questions related to raising babies/toddler!

-What is normal for breastfeeding in your communities?

For example in my community I know a few women who breastfed till 6 months, though they were the minority and I didn’t know anyone other than myself who breastfed to age 1 and beyond. Yet I have a Dutch friend and every single mother she knew breastfed until atleast age 1 and she was so surprised when I told her what was ‘normal’ over here.

-When are children generally potty trained? On my mind because we’re about to take the plunge!

-Is co-sleeping with baby a regular thing?

jewishorthomum · 28/04/2023 10:04

EllaDisenchanted · 28/04/2023 08:12

I can try, but there are multiple systems and ways of doing it. The chassidish system is very different. For me and my siblings, this is roughly how it works:

When are you ready: it depends. In the UK, young adults start to date way younger than in America. From 18, girls will start to look, and from 21 for guy. My American friends often don't start looking until their early 20s.

I was almost 19 when we started 'hearing suggestions'. Typically, people who know the girl or the boy will make a suggestion, if they think they have an idea of a match. This doesn't have to be a professional matchmaker. It is often better if it is not, because the person making the suggestion has knowledge of both the boy and the girl, so are better placed to think of ideas. Basically, it is networking. People will say 'what are you looking for', and you would say the things that are most important for you. Someone who wants to marry a boy who is learning will say they want a boy in learning. Because that has such a massive effect on how they set up and start their lives together for financial and spiritual reasons, this is a very important question. There' no point setting up a date between someone who wants a boy who is working and a girl who wants a guy in learning. They also ask where do you want to live, a lot of couples want to start off their marriage with a year or so learning in Israel, but many don't. Then personality - do they want someone more quiet, or outgoing, what value are important to them. My list was pretty straightforward: I wanted a mentch, who would be working, i.e. good character was the number 1 for me. Not aggressive, considerate, respectful, honest, easy going, flexible, needed to have a sense of humour. That's just me though. My cousin wanted a strong personality, someone driven and a bit fiery (she sound him lol).
I was happy to meet different types of people and see what gelled.

So people made suggestions, and my parents looked into them. That means they called up family and friends of the boy who have been given as references and try to get a feel for what he is like and whether he would be a good fit for me and whether they liked what they heard about him. If there are any major skeletons in the closet, they are likely to come out at this point.
The information is very detailed and you get a lot of it. Resumes are common now, (an American import I think), but I don't think they are particularly useful as they often say very similar thing (think personal statement for uni...)

The boys side meanwhile do the same. If both sides agree to meet, you then do dor yeshorim testing, to see if you are genetically compatible. Doing it before the couple meet means neither get emotionally involved and then find out they are genetically incompatible. I have a parent who is a tay sachs carrier, so I am very very grateful for this, as had I married another carrier, it would have had devastating consequences.
If that is successful, the couple arrange through the shadchan to meet. The shadchan is the matchmaker. This can be the friend or family maker who made the suggestion. They act as the go between at the beginning. It is usually a fairly short first date. My dh and I met and went out for drinks and then ended up chatting. It's supposed to be a relatively short first date, a getting to know you kind of thing. We hit it off like a house on fire and we were out for hours. Our second date was the next day, and we went again for drinks, then a walk and we were out 6 hours (my parents were having kittens because it would have been rude to message on the date so they had no idea how it was going! and 6 hours is very very long for a second date).
Anyway, you feedback to the shadchan after every date.If it is going well, you can switch to arranging dates between you. My husband and I were fairly unusual in that we were both each other's first. When dating, the point is to see several thing; are you attracted to each other (very important), do you like each other/get on (for obvious reason!) and do your goals and values align. Some couples do only a few dates and agree to get engaged, some take much longer. The more orthodox, the shorter the dating period tends to be (UK, I mean, Americans take much much longer).
I went out on 5 dates over a two week period and I was the one to take the lead in getting engaged to my husband (ADHD impulsivity, I liked him and couldn't wait any longer, but that is not usual).

My parents were involved in that they researched my husband, suggestions went to them originally, but I could nix any I didn't like. i also discussed my dates heavily with them (and my girlfriends). I have a lot of trust in their judgment and an excellent relationship with my parents.
It's an arranged date, not an arranged marriage. The choice was entirely mine.
One of my siblings went out with a lot of girls for year before he found his DW.

What would rule a guy out? Depends on the girl, but for me, past girls friends, I was shomer negia which meant I don't touch members of the opposite sex outside my family, so a guy who was more modern and had dated and had experience with girls was out. Any drug use, alcohol addiction or smoking would be an instant no for me. Medical issues are also considered.
Things like how much secular exposure they have or want is considered, e.g. for me I was happy to meet a guy who watched films, but didn't go to the cinema (I can't explain the nuances atm), I listened to non Jewish music so he had to be ok with a girl who did that, what he wears/what I wear. Basically, you are trying to match up people who are at similar levels of religious observance; it would have been a waste of time for me to go out with someone who only wore black hat and white shirt/black trousers all week, and would learn all day and didn't want films in the house, because we would not be on the same page religiously.

Converts have a harder time with shidduchim for sure. More because of social reasons. It takes a strong character to become an Orthodox Jewish convert, and they are often quite a bit older, so it's already harder to find a shidduch when you are older, and they often need someone a bit out of the box. Children of converts I think to a lesser degree, and it depends on what community they are in. My friend is the daughter of a convert, and she and her sister were both married very young, I don't think either had any problem.

Lineage is called yichus, and it is about whether a) you have big Ravs (Rabbi's who are spiritual leaders ) or Rebbes (chassidish spiritual leaders) in your direct ancestry, and also b) whether you come from an unbroken chain of religious orthodox Jews - it varies by community how important it is. To chassidim, it is uber important. In yeshivish circles (another group of chareidi Jew) it can be quite important, but maybe not to the same degree. In some circles yichus is almost like royalty.

Yichus was totally unimportant to me, my inlaws are both baalei teshuva (people who became frum/religious/orthodox when they were older), and are two of the loveliest, kindest, most generous people you will ever meet. I also really respect that they became religious, it is not an easy path.

There are also professional shadchan services, but I will leave that to someone else!

My dating experience as an orthodox Jew was very similar to what @EllaDisenchanted described. We went on 6 dates over a 2 week period before announcing an engagement.

jewishorthomum · 28/04/2023 10:07

Whichwhatnow · 28/04/2023 09:14

I think this was asked on the previous thread but I didn't see an answer (sorry if I missed it!).

Does adoption from outside the Jewish faith happen in the Jewish community? if so, would the adopted child be considered Jewish? Would they be required to convert and if so would there be an age limit on this (for example - adopted as a baby = automatically Jewish, adopted as a 10 y/o = needs to covert)?

Very interesting AMA, thank you to all (or should I say nearly all!) contributors!

An adopted child who is not Jewish has to be told that he is adopted and would have to go through conversion once they turn 12 for boys, and 13 for girls.

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