Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

Does it ever happen that an engaged couple decides to break it off?
Is this frowned upon?
And do you see one another frequently leading up to the wedding?
Must you be chaperoned?

Given the importance of blood lines, does this translate into an interest in ancestry and genealogy more generally? Do Jewish people tend to know a lot about their own family trees and if yes, how far back are we talking?

Just wondering where the opportunities might be for meaningful contact between Orthodox Jews and mainstream society. Do non Jewish midwives and health visitors care for Jewish women and children or do to u have your own trained HCPs within the community?

I learned a lot from the first thread so thank you to everyone who contributed.

I have a question:

Given that teenagers are often a muddle of hormones and want to fight against parental influence, expected norms etc., do many teenagers leave the faith or do they generally manage to find their way through the teenage years with respect for their faith and community?

40+ years back there was a stigma attached to having a child with disabilities but thankfully over the years its disappeared and is now no longer the case. Nowadays there is no shame at all involved in having a child with disabilities.

To help with the busy home life and large number of kids, many Jewish homes will outsource a lot of cleaning and house help. A jew who is affiliated with the lifestyle would most definitely be preferable as a nanny, but unfortunately it doesn't exist, or would be way more expensive.

3. I have never been charged a penny by any Rabbi, so that is definitely untrue in the orthodox circles. I do gift my Rabbi some money on Purim or before Passover (festivals), as a token of appreciation. But this is not at all imposed or asked for by the Rabbi. Nepotism, yes there is this issue with the schooling system. Many orthodox jewish schools are private schools and as such limit their intake. If a school was full and you really wanted your kid to attend that particular school, those with connections could possibly use those connections to get in. I am unaware of it occurring within the Jewish housing association.

Oh yes. Usually the first thing Jews do when they meet for the first time, is talk about their ancestry. This is more to try to find common relatives, rather than the importance of blood lines. Because the Jewish population is so small, and we marry within, there is alot of overlap of families. And once we start to talk about our genealogy and go back far enough we will always find that common relative.

Regarding Rabbis who advise on bedikots, and about all sexual and marriage matters, is there a principle of absolute confidentiality?

I love this! And both threads, one of the best, more respectful and informative I’ve ever read on MN. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

Yes. Jewish genealogy is a huge thing. Not least because (a) so many of us were killed in the Holocaust, and (b) so many of us have been dispersed around the world.

Through a combination of DNA testing, and genealogical research, I've found relatives in the US, Israel, Argentina, South Africa, etc. I've also visited the place where my grandfather was born in Poland. We employed a specialist researcher who was able to trace that line back to the early 19th century and we visited the places in Poland where they came from. I've also done lots of other research of my own and have connected with people, and I know loads about the history of my family in London over the past hundred or so years.

When I meet another Jewish person we usually swap names, places we've spent time in, universities, etc. until we find out what connections we have (not only blood connections but friends too). I don't think I've ever met a British Jew where we couldn't identify at least one friend/family member in common.

Engagements do get broken. Its not seen s a "bad" thing and frowned upon, rather a sad thing. We view it with sympathy that the engagement didn't work out.
During the engagement period the couple do see each other. The frequency depends on each community.
My husband was studying in Israel during out engagement, I spoke on the phone twice weekly, and when he was back in town I went out with him weekly. No physical touch at all during the engagement period though.
We don't see or talk to each other from a week before the wedding. (Some say this is from the time the bride goes to mikva for her first time) This is to build up excitement.

Total confidentiality. You can even post in your bedika cloth in an envelope with your phone number and no name. The Rabbi will call/message you with an answer.

Thanks @jewishorthomum and @Ortiguilla.

When researching my own family tree I traced my ancestry back to two Jewish families living in London in the early 19th century, but I have no idea where to look if I want to go further back than that. I've traced many of my non Jewish ancestors much further back, but using C of E and Catholic parish records, which obviously aren't of any use when it comes to Jewish ancestors.

I did find out that my great great great uncle was the first Jewish free settler in Australia and it's possible that I still have some living Jewish relatives somewhere.

There is no transgression for a woman to masturbate. But there is for a man. A man isn't allowed to ejaculate other than in his wife.

Thank you jewishorthomum! Do responses come quickly?

Where I live we are cared for under the regular NHS midwives, and health visitor. There are a few Jewish ladies who work as midwives and health visitors on NHS and by chance I happened to be under their care with one of my babies.

We do have Jewish labour supports and doulas from within the community.

Some Rabbis are busier than others. But you'd expect a response same day or the next.

We definitely wouldn't want to join a shul (and even if we did, we live somewhere that it would be extremely difficult logistically).

I'm more interested in how/if other Jewish families would relate to/accept an illegitimate child with a non-Jewish mother as part of their family!

yes, very much so. A Rabbi will prioritise this as it will impact the couple so much. It is very time sensitive. They will also do everything they can to find a leniency.

On one occasion I had a stain on my 7th day cloth (day I was due to go to Mikva). If it was problematic I would have had to restart the 7 days (very upsetting). I messaged a Rabbi I had never met or heard of (got number from relative), and my husband dropped off the cloth . He doesn't know me, I've never met him, there is no financial incentive, but he dropped everything to take it to someone more knowledgeable than him who was able to rule it as fine, so I could go to Mikva in time.

Treating anyone badly and with disrespect is against Judaism so I'm sorry that were treated inferior. However orthodox Judaism will only recognise you as Jewish if your mum was Jewish.

Do you ever feel that the rabbis have too much say/control over your life, almost like a 'god on earth' figure? Maybe that is the purpose?
A YouTuber I watch had a miscarriage on one of the yom tov fasts. Obviously she couldn't drive or phone the rabbi to ask him if she should break her fast, so she had to gather up her children and walk to the shul to ask him personally (her DH was there too but she couldn't phone him as using phone on yom tov days isn't allowed). She was bleeding heavily and had severe pain, but felt the need to ask his permission to break her fast. It just seemed to me that there is little autonomy, you cobstantly need someone to interpret rules?
Also, she said her and her husband have different rabbis. Is this the norm? What if one gives advice that the other disagrees with? Do you just stick to your own?

In my circles the dating goes through a third party be it a matchmaker or family friend who knows both the girl and the boys family. After each date we would let them know how the date went and whether we wanted to go out again. They would then pass on the message to the other side. My husband and I didn't exchange numbers until we our engagement. In many more modern orthodox circles the couple are in contact with each other directly during dating.

The wedding costs are often split 50/50. Or some the brides family will pay for most things and the grooms family pays for music, flowers and photography.
The guests will be seperated by a temporary wall/divider. Its to avoid mingling with the other sex.

I was diagnosed a an adult, but not because of community factors. It was my orthodox Jewish Doctor who pushed me to get the assessment (I had a misdiagnosis before).

Yes, nowadays there is good understanding and acceptance. Decades ago, special needs was 'brushed under the carpet', there were stigmas, and I'd say very very outdated views. There has been massive shifts in the last few decades, in terms of acceptance, education, adaptation and understanding. Once outdated mindsets began to change, the community mobilised and services for kids and adults with special needs developed and these are phenomenal.

There are probably holdovers who have outdated views, but I think (hope) they are a very small minority today.

Some of the initiatives we have are incredible, for kids with disabilities, as well as those suffering from illness.
I'll put a few link in below if anyone is interested.

https://www.friendshipcircle.org.uk/

https://kefkids.org/

https://www.campsimcha.org/

https://stepbystepkids.org.uk/

https://www.kisharon.org.uk/

Sadienurse - my experience completely the opposite of your you tuber. I'm part of a modern orthodox community and I don't know anyone who would walk to the rabbi's after a MC. The story sounds very suspicious - why didn't the DH walk to shul to get the answer?

I've been heavily pregnant 3 times over Yom Kippur and in theory I should still have fasted. In practice the (orthodox) rabbi and his wife both approached me to check I wasn't actually going to fast and recommend foods to eat.

That would really be ruled on a case by case basis and only by expert rabbis. In theory there is no basis for abortion just because, but if the case can be made that the mother's life is at risk due to mental health issues, an exception might possibly be made.

Just to point out that teenage pregnancy among the Orthodox community is extremely rare.

As far as 'the community' shunning anyone, there is no monolith that can be referred to as 'the community'. There are many individuals with shared beliefs and values.

Of these individuals, some might choose not to associate with that family, while others would rightfully see it as not their business.

The same question could be asked of anyone in the general public, what would happen if a child of theirs did some behaviour that went against the core values of all their acquaintances? Let's say someone's child gets convicted for child abuse, would the family be 'shunned'?

I guess the answer would be the same as mine. Some people would cease contact, while others would be there for the parents to support them. It's very much an individual thing.

I don't see it that the Rabbi has control over my life, rather the Torah (bible) is what controls my life. The Rabbi is there to help guide me and advise me how to live my life according to it when I'm unsure. So the Torah tells us to fast on that day, not the Rabbi. The Rabbi is there to explain how to navigate a miscarriage happening on a fast day.
Although any danger or risk to life would override a fast day. So if she were at risk of passing out she could have eaten without a problem.
People can choose the right Rabbi for them. You do need to be able to connect with your Rabbi, and feel understood by him, so it is personal. However I'd say that many/most couples share Rabbi's.