Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

Babies don't have the same rules - you gradually increase the wait time as they get older. For a small child, a small wait is enough, depending on their level of understanding and patience. Ultimately the full force of the rules only apply from when they are bar/bat mitzvah (12 for a girl, 13 for a boy)

Weaning babies - babies are exempt from the usual rules about waiting after meat to drink milk. We ease kids into it. My eldest is 5 and we only insist on him having a gap of a few hours (we keep 5 and a bit hours gap).

Being married to someone doesn’t mean you know how they feel - you may think you know but you don’t it’s impossible and disrespectful of that person to say you do.

Respectfully when a question is asked to women a respectful man will stand to the side and let them answer and not tell them how they feel.

Mumsnet is a place where women can voice their opinions - please do not talk over them.

@ClaudetteAndHerBaguette I'm sorry that I was brushing you off before. I just didn't really understand how me seeing Juadism as a truth would interest others. But I'm happy to try explain.
Growing up I questioned almost every aspect of my religion. I questioned why I can't have a boyfriend, and why I had to dress modestly... My dad and my Rabbi was amazing he would find all the answers and explain everything to me. Through this seeking I came to appreciate the intelligence and understanding of human nature that Judaism has. This is the truth that I'm referring to. The truth that Judaism is a good lifestyle for Jews to live by.
Just one example, only a Gd who created women could instruct us to keep apart from our spouses for 12+ days a month (definitely no man would make a law like that) and although they are challenging I see them outweighed by the massive benefits on marriages.
So in short the truth that Judaism and the Torah is the correct and most purposeful way of life for a Jew is seen throughout. Does that explain it a little more?

Jewish law develops over time. Halacha is roughly based on a hierarchy of - Torah, Talmud (written down Oral Law), and subsequent development by Rabbis right down to our times. This is a really basic explanation - there's lot more to it.

For your specific examples - polygamy was outlawed by a Rabbinic Decree (takana) for Ashkenazim in around the 12th century (dates are fuzzy). It was never formally outlawed for Sephardim, but is frowned on - Yemenite Jews immigrating to Israel did sometimes have polygamous families.

Slavery - v important, slavery in the Torah is a very different concept to chattel slavery. Again, I don't think it has ever been specifically outlawed - I know someone whose grandfather in Morocco supposedly had a (Jewish) slave for a time, presumably for debt reasons. But again it is frowned upon. I can't think of anyone who would think it is OK today.

Another factor is that Jews are meant to obey the secular laws of the country they live in (unless they directly clash with fundamental Jewish laws like not worshipping idols etc.). This is called 'dina d'malchuta dina'. So if Jews live in a country where slavery or polygamy is banned, they shouldn't be doing it.

Yes. This is a thing. It's called Orthoprax.

The truth is other Jews will judge them based on their outward behaviour, not what's inside their head. I.e. do they keep Shabbat and kosher, do they give to charity, how do they behave towards others, are they raising their children to be observant. Etc.

Levirate marriage never happens, they always do chalitza.

Being a divorcee or an older single is hard. Orthodox Jewish life is very family orientated, so yes there is pressure to be married or remarried. I think there is growing sensitivity towards women who are not ready to remarry and are single mums. But room for improvement.

See my last answer

Premarital sex is a no no, so there is pressure on young people to date and get married young. Especially if you also want/expect to have a big family. For Modern Orthodox to Yeshivish it would be from around aged 18 up (MO probably older). Can't comment on Chasidish.

You can obviously get married older, but socially it is harder and your dating pool becomes smaller. Some people date internationally because of this.

Thanks. As a follow up: how are historic practices from the Torah seen by modern Jews? Like is Abraham's relationship with Hagar seen as something which was ok for him but isn't now, or more that it wasn't ideal even at the time and just because he's a patriarch doesn't mean everything he did was good? Like when he lied (twice) by omission by saying that Sarah was his sister not his wife, do the later commentators say that was ok for him to do in the circumstances or that he shouldn't have done it?

My husband’s father was raised reform Jewish, but moved away from the religion as a young man, and consequently DH was raised in a very atheist household. We are VLC with DH DM.

Although other members of his extended family on his fathers side are religious, DH’s only real exposure is at funerals, and his understanding and knowledge of this heritage is low. He is interested in Jewish intellectual history, but no other elements really.

I would like our son to have a greater understanding and not only to associate Judaism with funerals.

I was brought up in a lapsed Christian (but basically atheist) household, 1st generation immigrant to UK from a former colony and feel a bit rootless, so my son having roots of some kind is important to me.

My DH is supportive but in a “happy to go along for the journey” role, no interest in the driving seat.

Any advice for how we can support our son to understand and take an interest in this element of his heritage without inadvertently “appropriating”?

I have signed our son up to JP library as a first step.

Abraham didn't have the Torah. The Torah with its commandment was given over 1000 years later so technically he wasn't transgressing any laws

@Fink https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112053/jewish/Hagar.htm
explains the jewish view on Abraham and Hagers relationship

I don’t think I have ever seen an AMA go on to a second thread. This has been very interesting for me as I haven’t had an in depth discussion of Judaism for about 25 years. It has brought back happy memories of working for a Jewish firm in London and learning so much about comparative religion.

As a very light and possibly flippant example: I recall one conversation being summed up by my lovely liberal jewish boss as ‘at the end of the day, Judaism and Catholicism are very similar but as a Catholic, you feel guilty about everything you do and as a Jew, I feel guilty about everything I don’t do’.

Some questions: how do Orthodox Jews feel about the very liberal approaches to Judaism? Are they bordering on heretical or do you metaphorically shrug your shoulders and say each to their own?

How does the Jewish population in the UK breakdown in terms of liberal/modern orthodox/orthodox? I’ve always assumed that liberals are in the majority but on reading this thread, I am questioning that.

@JeweyJew I am curious as to how you found this thread - are you a MN regular or were you directed to this thread?

@mirah2 What is the average age for first marriage in your community? Is it different between men and women?

@jewishorthomum thanks again for a very interesting thread!

Thank you @jewishorthomum that's very interesting. What would the view be on someone who did have the Torah, e.g. Moses, David ... ? Are all their actions meant to be praised or are they seen as flawed people who got things wrong sometimes? I'm not talking about times when their actions are clearly condemned by the Bible (e.g. G-d condemning Moses after the rebellion at Meribah, condemning the killing of Uriah through Nathan) but when the Bible doesn't comment on their actions, how would a Jewish person see them?

Thank you to the OP here and to the OP of thread 1 for all your posts. This has been a really fascinating and insightful thread. Mumsnet at its best.

I hope this isn’t too sensitive or intrusive a question as we are brought up in general society to not ask questions about finances. I think a lot about ethical banking, for example green banking, and corporate social responsibility, etc.

So my question is framed from that angle. It’s more about what you would consider ethical banking, along the lines of sharia arms of some main High Street banks or specific sharia banks.

In a similar vein, would you be OK to bank at a UK High Street institution, or seek out specific banking solutions elsewhere, e.g. any London branches of an Israeli bank or other bank founded on Jewish principles?

Is it though? How long does it take for a woman to get ready to go out vs for a man? Men and women differ in their interests and in the way they interact with the opposite gender.

Mumsnet isn't just for women and this has been addressed many times. Respectfully, I do know how my wife feels about certain subjects as we talk and share.

My post, with my wife's opinion, was as much of value as that of any other individual woman. Any poster can only say how she personally feels about an issue, and nobody can purport to speak for an entire community.

The origins question was asked by a poster who had an underlying agenda, she was bothered by the fact that male rabbis rule on what is mainly women's issues. To that pointed out that this happens all the time in the medical field, and generally people haven't got a problem with it. They understand that professionals are just doing their job.

As an aside, with most people I know, it's the husband who would bring the cloth to the rabbi, so it's never uncomfortable for the woman. In all the years of my marriage I think only twice did my wife had to take it as I was out of the area and it was a time sensitive question.

Same for Chassidim. The pressure is internal, from the boy or girl wanting to conform and be part of a (a very family oriented) society. There isn't usually any external pressure, ie there are no 'elders' pressuring someone to get married.

That said, there'll always be that one person who suffers from foot in mouth syndrome...

@DifficultBloodyWoman

I am curious as to how you found this thread - are you a MN regular or were you directed to this thread?

That's for me to know... 😉

I did get a text from my sister this afternoon asking if I was JeweyJew from MN.

Any sex talk is completely outlawed. I posted at length in the first thread, we have a very puritanical style approach to sex, and sexual purity and morality is a strong value.

Our children wouldn't even know about TV and movies or any other cultural icons, which is another thing they're sheltered from and we would want to limit exposure. (This might be less so in modern orthodox communities.)

Coming back to the question of mikvah. If people are required to go for mikvah at the end of nida, and men every time they ejaculate, doesn't that mean:

a) having a sex life is pretty expensive. Google suggestsb in the UK a mikvah costs approx £10. If you have sex 3 times a week for 2 weeks of the month plus the female cleansing, that works out at about £300 a month. Do poorer couples just not have sex any more?

b) I'm guessing that orthodox Jews have to be located geographically close to their mikvah, so would be limited in which cities they could live etc? And the same for going on holiday, unless you are abstinent when away?

c) when googling the cost, I noticed that some mikvah's you have to book 48 hours in advance. What I can see how that works for nida, it seems quite logistically difficult post sex.

Thanks :-)

But why did you think it was necessary to join in in a thread which clearly said JEWISH MUM.
Unless you're a transwoman, of course.

But there's a difference between getting advice from a doctor who is professionally qualified, and a rabbi, who just decides on things according to custom.

Also, Jewey, most of the Jewish women on this thread called you out on your temerity in answering a question which was clearly put to women for their views.

Just thought I would point out that that the lovely posters who started these threads have been very clear about being orthodox but in liberal Judaism, there are female rabbis, at least one of who is/was a lesbian and is now a transgender man.