Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

I certainly wouldn't eat there, but I would have a cup of coffee - there is a very famous teshuva of Rav Ya'akov Emden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Emden who came to London and had coffee at the Ritz (I think it was). It was the first time he had every done this, he had reasoned that it was OK, but he also said he felt very uncomfortable. That was at a time when there was presumably no kosher cafes in London. I think he had it black though.
Also note that the more along the spectrum towards Charedi you are, the less likely you are to do this - also because I drink regular milk, whereas many people won't they only drink kosher milk (milked under the supervision of a religious Jew). Those who drink regular milk rely on the fact that the government regulates milk, and therefore we feel we can rely on the fact that it is really cows milk and no admixtures (when I went to Lithuania on a visit when it was still part of the Soviet Union, I wouldn't, as I didn't trust the government there). In the old days, there was a worry that other milks got mixed in. Many others won't drink regular milk and want somebody there checking there is nothing mixed into the cows milk (I they regard it as too lenient to rely on the government).

Do you discourage masturbation?

Thank you for your answer.

In what way judged - do you mean for religious beliefs or something different?

A lot (most) women think things about their friends to some small extent, as in oh, I wouldn't wear that, but I wouldn't say I judge my friends.

I am friends with one Jewish person who I don't see any more as she emigrated, and I can honestly say on this, an anonymous forum, I never found any thing to judge about her.

Thank you.

To be blunt - an Orthodox family wouldn't want their daughters hearing other teenage girls chatting about 'oh, so and so has such a fit bum, I really want to shag him'. Or words to that effect.

I'm not up to date with the latest slang. But I went to a non-Jewish girl's school. I know the talk.

Sorry

Since infant circumcision is an unnecessary medical procedure, and you say that Jewish people do all you can to promote health, how do you reconcile circumcising every baby boy?

The next bit of that is that I, personally, would have less of an issue with any hypothetical daughters hanging out with non-Jewish girls from more conservative backgrounds e.g. other religious groups. Like a dance class for Muslim and Jewish girls. There would be other issues to navigate, but that wouldn't be one.

Others may disagree.

Circumcision is a symbol of a person's commitment to God. We use the very organ that is the source of life, which also be chosen to use for the most immoral acts, as the site to be sanctified with circumcision. This gives us the profound message that we can use every physical drive for holy purposes.

I know it sounds very lofty but it is the basic tenant of Judaism that all enjoyment and physical drives of the world can be used in a spiritual and uplifting way.

If I encountered an Orthodox family in daily life - so I had to speak to them - is there a polite greeting/goodbye that is appropriate for a non-Jew to use? With Arabic speaking friends I would always say “As-salamu alaykum” as well as hello. Is there an appropriate equivalent?

You'd say hi ;)

@TheShellBeach This isn't the reason that Jews circumcise but I believe there may be studies of the health benefits of circumcision. I may be wrong here

Good to know!

Many people will stop and greet me with a Shalom. I know they are being friendly and I appreciate it. But we always laugh because Shalom is Hebrew for Hello, and I don't talk Hebrew in the UK. We talk English and even within the community we say HI/Hello. No one says Shalom.

@jewishorthomum @mirah2 I've just spent the last few hours reading both threads and genuinely the most interesting I've read in a long time. Thank you to both of you, as well as all the other Jewish women sharing your wisdom, facts and most importantly your experiences. Just fascinating and MN at its best! Well, apart from the bloke who thought it was appropriate to completely hijack a 'jewish orthodox mum ama' thread, because of course.

Are there many Jewish schools?

Presumably you may encounter the types of issues / conversations referred to on the dance issue?

(Although I would suspect teenagers are much the same the world over regardless of what their parents may want to think)

As a teenager me and my friends would never speak like that. I mean, some girls had crushes on boys (real boys we knew, or boys in Jewish boy choirs lol - anyone remember the Miami Boys Choir???) and would talk about how good looking they were but not in such crude ways.

Maybe in less Orthodox schools girls spoke like that. I wouldn't know.

This is interesting. I assumed pretty much all milk would be kosher (cow, goat, sheep etc., all the animals you regularly get milk from - obviously milk from a non-kosher animal wouldn't be, but I can't think of any of those that are regularly sold), so would people who keep koscher not drink regular milk in case it was from more than one animal, or did I misunderstand that? Is there a worry the milk would be adulterated with non-milk?

I'm still quite interested in the "undeniable truths" mentioned earlier, despite being brushed off somewhat. I'm just interested, not looking to pick apart your beliefs or analyse them! Can anyone shed some light on this?

This has been so interesting OP. Thank you for starting the threads, and to all the other Orthodox Jews who have explained rules and traditions.
(I am married to a man who had a Jewish father, but not mother, so our children are ethically part Jewish and have Jewish cousins, but are not themselves Jewish by religion).
The closeness of the community, the structure, and the support and help given to its members by volunteers and donations, has been genuinely moving to read and I imagine it is very rewarding to live within.

Camels and asses and horses have milk, and I assume so do pigs. Traditionally nobody drank milk without somebody watching over the milking. With the advent of modern companies and government regulation, some Orthodox Rabbis ruled that was enough to allow to drink regular milk, in countries in which we trust the government, of which the UK is one. Others disagreed. It depends which of these Rabbis you follow

Entirely hypothetical question... If I wanted to keep a certain man away from a thread, would posting bikini photos be a a good tactic?

I’m just back to reply to @JeweyJew in response to my post re feeling dehumanised by the orthodox Jewish men refusing to accept I exist as a human outside of my sex.

On the last thread you said “woman tend to seek attraction more than men” and I just wanted to correct you and say that is a very misguided and misogynistic opinion.

Watching in case the cows are just a decoy and theres a secret hidden herd of camels or something?

The risk of that sort of set up is surely so infinitesimally small to he disproportionate. I'm guessing kosher certified milk is a lot more expensive too?

On the subject of milk and kosher, how does it work with weaning babies who are likely to want milk more than every 3-6 hours? Does that mean they are raised vegetarian until weaned?

Yes, my DD did NCS, but she did it through an organisation that organised kosher and halal food - it was billed as a "faith" NCS, and the girls she met (and they are almost all girls, even though officially NCS is mixed) were much more traditional/religious than I think would be the norm.

There are Jewish schools in NW London, Stamford Hill and Manchester. Also in smaller communities like Leeds, Birmingham, Liverpool etc but tbh those are state aided and I think a high number of kids are not Jewish (the school is still run under a Jewish ethos).

Most Orthodox families would send to a Jewish school as a matter of choice. Some Modern Orthodox would consider a good non-Jewish private school for secondary - there are a few in NW London with a high number of Jewish students, including Modern Orthodox ones.

The social issue is a very important reason for Orthodox Jews to send to their own schools. Yes, teens will be teens, but by being in a setting in line with our community we hope we can avoid the worse of the issues around sex/drink/drugs/general behaviour that other teen parents have to face (I am not there yet).

Other reasons are:

Jewish education - there is a lot to learn, more than can decently be done in Sunday school. To get a proper grounding in Judaism you need to learn Hebrew, understand how to read Jewish scripture, plus learning about halacha, Jewish philosophy etc. A good chunk of the school day is spent on this, and some schools even open on Sunday mornings for extra classes on the Jewish curriculum. This is all done alongside the secular curriculum (so overall longer hours).

Kashrut - really hard to navigate keeping kosher in a non-kosher setting.

Shabbat and holidays - Jewish schools finish early on Fridays and close down for festivals. An Orthodox kid in a regular school would have to miss lessons because of this. Exams can also be an issue if they are scheduled for a festival (Jewish students in uni have to deal with this).