Jewish Orthodox mum AMA

[jewishorthomum]

I'm a 29 yr old Jewish Orthodox religious mum of 2 little boys. Is there anything you'd like to ask about Orthodox Jewish life?
Kill my time whilst I'm waiting to be called in for an appointment.
(When I get called in for my app I'll have to run but will try respond later if there are questions.)

I'm interested in the responses to the stories of many of us who have been treated in a way that we perceive to be rude by Jewish men (averting the gaze, refusing the handshake, crossing the road to avoid us, blanking a direct question and the lady who simply passed on a message to a chap about his dinner on the plane and got a hand held up in front of her face for her trouble ). My own story is holding out my hand for a handshake and the man pulling his hand away as if it contained something disgusting, then not saying a word.

You know how people who don't speak a language sometimes learn the phrase "I'm sorry, I don't speak X" in that language?

Could that not have some application here- so that man who pulled his hand away from me could have said "I'm sorry, my religion doesn't allow me to shake hands, but pleased to meet you". Or the man in the plane could have said "thank you for the message, forgive me for not talking any more as my religion forbids it". Unfortunately, the expectation seems to be that we as non-Jewish women should automatically KNOW that our attempts to interact in a standard way will make these men uncomfortable - and a gesture like a hand in the face is clearly casting blame for us not knowing. Also, would it do any harm to teach men that women outside their community may be offended by the way that the religion demands they treat us, so perhaps try a bit harder not to do it in such an obvious way? It does come across as "I don't care in the slightest how you feel, as long as I am not uncomfortable." One of those answering here said "it doesn't harm anybody" but it does- the poster with the plane story has clearly been feeling bad about this for weeks, and I still remember that handshake incident with embarrassment 20 years later. I had absolutely no idea.

OP, what would you teach your sons about this?

If the wigs are beautiful and natural looking, what is the point?

What happens if there is domestic abuse? If a husband is abusing his wife, she wants a divorce but he refuses? Where there are children involved how does custody work in that situation?

The handshaking thing is interesting because of offence that may be caused both ways as KvotheTheBloodless has indicated. Recently at work we had a visit from a male Muslim client who handled it perfectly (I thought). He explained straight away that his faith meant that he was unable to shake hands with the women in the room out of respect for his wife. But that in order not to offend the women in the room he would respectfully decline to shake hands with the men either. It was a really nice way of ensuring no one felt slighted, uncomfortable or disrespected including him.

Such an interesting thread! Thank you.

"Some communities will cover their legs with tights, some won't. Trousers show the shape of the leg which isn't allowed, so its all skirts or dresses."

I don't understand this; if you can't wear trousers as they show the shape of the leg, why can you wear skirts which obviously show them more?

I've just left The Jewish Museum in Camden after reading this thread on an overnight bus from Glasgow.
Great thread and brilliant museum, thank you all so much

@sunshinesallday

• I feel kinship with anyone Jewish regardless of their religious observance level. So whether you cover your hair or not, wear trousers, skirt, or nothing at all, I'd still see you as a Jew. Obviously if someone practices orthodoxy there is an extra connection of shared lifestyle. But the Jewish connection is always there.
• Before marriage hair isn't covered at all. If an area is so remote that I won't meet other people then I could uncover my hair, but I probably wouldn't because at this point my wig is just part of me and I'd probably feel self conscious and strange without it on outdoors.
• Shellfish is considered nonkosher so no I wouldn't even taste it. I enjoy trying out new foods so that's why it interests me. I have no idea if I'd like the taste or not though.
• So orthodox Jews won't have sexual relationships before marriage, so no trying it out with others and dating just for fun. Even nowadays. I know its hard to believe😆
• Regarding botox and tatoos. Tatoos are not allowed for the reasons you said above. I hear the question about how botox differs and I'm unsure, although perhaps this is because botox enhances features that already are there. I'm going to get back to you with an answer.

This would have screwed me over!! I had 21 day cycles and 12 day periods!!

We'd avoid tight fitting skirts and opt for looser ones that don't show too much shape

I suppose skirts which are fairly long and not close fitting reveal less of the woman's leg and hip shape than trousers which tend to be fairly close fitting around the bottom and thighs.

I've had this before with someone from India. I was the only woman in the room and he shook hands with everyone else except me. After that, guidance was issued (we have quite a bit of guidance on cultural awareness as the UK and Indian teams come together frequently) to suggest that shaking hands should not take place at all. Much prefer it that way.

This is such a great way of addressing the situation.

I feel it’s a tricky situation as both cultures need to be respected and there is a real risk of othering certain groups (eg non Jewish women in the hand shaking example).

This thread has been fascinating. On a personal note I feel it’s a shame that religions don’t mix with each other as all peoples lives are enriched by interactions with those from different faiths and cultures.

Can I ask the OP do you teach your children about different faiths?

really interesting thread, thanks! Is the first day you would wear a wig at your wedding?

and what does a traditional orthodox Jewish wedding look like?

Religious Jewish marriages in this country are also civil marriages..in UK law, a legal marriage is effected when both parties are members of a synagogue and the rabbi officiates the marriage (this is why Jewish weddings can be in someone's back garden, no need for registered wedding venues).

So the custody issues and financial division would be sorted in the courts. Theoretically Jewish women get all the protection afforded to them by the legal system. They just have to get a Jewish divorce on top of that in order to be divorced in the eyes of the faith. Some men use this as leverage to get a more favourable financial settlement. This is wrong and Torah scholars have debating for ages on what to do with the agunah (chained women).

My DH was a child of such a marriage which was why I was turned off converting to orthodox Judaism. It really affected my MIL's finances and also the welfare of the kids when her ex was demanding such a lot of money

I know a lot of people have clauses in their Jewish marriage agreement that the man must always agree to a divorce but my MIL didn't.

Do you have Jewish refuges for women and children fleeing domestic violence?

I agree totally that the handshake refusal should be explained with a simple "I don't shake hands with opposite gender for religious reasons". Or I know a man who says " Out of respect to my wife, I don't shake hands with other women".
I think the rude way you were treated is a mix of discomfort on their part, awkwardness and lack of social skills.
I do intend to raise my kids to respectfully explain.

There are lots of Jewish old age homes so nope! There is a lovely assisted living residence near my MIL's home for holocaust survivors where they have a hairdresser, lounge, synagogue etc

This could be a generalization but I find that older Jewish people are way more likely than the general population to downsize and live in flats which mean they can stay in their home for longer...

Oh thank you _ I really like that answer, it feels right spiritually for some reason!

Question for all the Jewish woman on this thread - do you use bedikot cloths every month?
Have you ever shown a bedikot cloth to a rabbi, if you found a questionable stain which might render you a niddah?
How do you feel about showing a man such an intimate item?

Girls and boys usually will go to separate primary and high schools. Once they reach 13 they are treated as adults and are obligated to abide by Jewish law.
There is no preference over having a baby boy over girl or vice versa.

Hey OP! I know you have already said that in an emergency, it's fine to break to rules to save a life but what about routine medical stuff, do you have to see someone of the same gender as you? I'm thinking of your example here where a man won't shake a woman's hand, would he see a female dentist for a check up for example?

Another post that really brought this home was the poster who said that as a 10 year-old she was playing with some Jewish girls and her playmates' guardians made a big fuss about separating them, leaving her feeling upset and confused as if she had done something wrong. Someone said "oh that was a trauma response, we're conditioned to believe that mixing with non-Jews will harm us". Of course I understand that this is the result of horrific persecution throughout history, but is it really proportionate to apply this in a playground in North London? They could subtly separate the children "come in, time to go, say goodbye!" and have a word later about avoiding it happening again, but to leave poor 10 year old feeling like she had transgressed in some way is not very empathetic to the feelings of others.

I don't know of any Jewish refuge homes for domestic violence, but in my community there are helplines and support groups for victims of abuse and they offer lots of assistance.

Judaism is quite different, it's considered important to be part of the country you're living in. Every synagogue service includes a prayer for the monarch (was the Queen, now King Charles) and for the safety of the UK. My grandfather was a British soldier in WW2 and my great-grandfather joined the British army in WW1 even though he only arrived here from Poland in 1914.

Most Jews among my family and friends are very politically engaged.

For medical matters there is no problem with seeing doctors/dentists of the opposite gender.