Jewish Orthodox mum AMA

[jewishorthomum]

I'm a 29 yr old Jewish Orthodox religious mum of 2 little boys. Is there anything you'd like to ask about Orthodox Jewish life?
Kill my time whilst I'm waiting to be called in for an appointment.
(When I get called in for my app I'll have to run but will try respond later if there are questions.)

Such an interesting thread. Thank you, I’ve learned a lot. I really appreciate your open and honest responses, the love and pride you have expressed for your faith, family and community is lovely to read about.

I’d like to ask whether you or your husband vote in UK elections? I ask because I have some JW extended family and as an insular community, they don’t. Thank you.

I'm going to jump in on @jewishorthomum 's behalf and work backwards, hope that's ok.

The issue with long periods/early ovulation - yes, this can be an issue for couples TTC. It's called 'halachic infertility' (halacha being Jewish religious law).

If a couple is struggling and this is flagged as an issue, there are adaptations that can be made to try and solve this. It would mean speaking to a Rabbi who is well versed in these (or in some circles a female Yoetzet Halacha, who is a specialist in this area of law and can also act as a go between with Rabbis), together with HCPs. There are a few organisations who deal with this in the community.

As a general point - Jewish law is not just a fixed set of written rules from the Torah with no room for flexibility. I think this is a mistake people often make. Jewish law is a bit like the English common law system, it has developed over time based on the Torah, Talmud (which recorded a system of oral law), and subsequent decisions by Rabbis on cases that were presented to them for a ruling, right up until today. This means you will find different legal opinions on any one topic, and there will also be a tension between different legal/ethical principles. Overall, there is a strong principle of being pragmatic and looking at the individual in front of you when deciding the best way of applying the law.

Also, Orthodox Rabbis play different roles but this is the one thing that defines them as a 'rabbi' - they have studied and been tested by their peers as competent to make rulings on a specific area of Jewish law. The most basic area is kashrut (i.e. kosher food).

For a couple going through halachic infertility, they would not just go to any Rabbi. They would seek out a Rabbi who has specialised in Jewish law around nidda and is recognised as an expert in this area - which is actually one of the most difficult areas to 'qualify' in as a Rabbi.

Also fascinated.

OP.may I ask what you hope to achieve from the thread? Do you feel a kinship with other mothers or is it more that you feel your community will be safer if the underlying structures and motivations behind some of its practices are better understood? What’s your motivation?

Still not answered! Unless I missed it....🙂

@itmustbeexhausting @Conchersbonkers

Sociologically, you may have a point.

Theologically, as others have explained, Judaism does not believe everyone has to be Jewish to be a good person. Non-Jews can believe in God and follow the seven Noachide laws. Jews have a special role to play in the world which is separate to any other people's role.

Historically, there have been periods where Jews were more open to converting others - there is a lot of interesting discussion around the Roman Empire around the same time that Christianity was getting started. However, Jews living in Christian Europe were persecuted and also actively prohibited from converting others - at least one convert to Judaism was executed by the Christian authorities for doing so. Because of this, there was a strong tendency up until recent centuries to discourage conversions because it would put both the convert and the Jewish community in danger (as well as the Jews generally being forced into a more insular role). I'm not sure if Jews were subject to similar rules under Islamic rulers, but I suspect there might have been issues here as well.

(I am a convert).

Thank you for answering re why I have been ignored by Jewish men. I have to say, and I don’t mean to be rude, but I find the averting of the gaze of the men and the obvious ignoring of 50% of the public quite rude and disrespectful. I know this is not personal choice, the men are simply following rules but…

Being considered not a full person but simply a walking vessel that at any time and without knowing, may tempt a man from virtue is quite dehumanising and derogatory. “Excuse me please” is not “I’d like to have sex with you”

When a woman ages and become less attractive, will they be looked upon? Would a stranger be helped if they fell in the street and were female for instance?

I think someone did answer.

100 years back - yes, that is plausible. Your great grandad would have been seen as betraying his community. The rituals were mourning rituals pretending he was 'dead' to his family.

Sorry if this seems harsh.

Thank you @highfidelity. I think I may have been skimming the fat off. I'll buy some white pepper. Father used to serve the soup with some chicken as lunch or a starter and there was a more substantial meal/course with the chicken and left over lokshen as a gravy.

My parents separated when I was 12 so I probably missed out on the day to day observations.

He also used to make chicken liver pate with grated egg but I'm never sure if that's really allowed.

Pickled cucumbers called Haimishers and pickled herring also featured.

My father spent his boyhood in Berlin, moving to an aunt in Hamburg in 37/38. Untypically his father was of Polish/Russian heritage and Ashkenazi, whereas his mother was of Spanish/Portugese heritage and Sephardic. I believe his mother was of an orthodox background but his father was not. From what I have read of Sephardic Jews I'm not sure how his mother's father was a rabbi but I imagine there was some integration involved in the various migrations.

Father was deeply affected by his childhood and what happened. I don't think his soul ever truly recovered. I never understood the enormity of it until DS's 10th birthday when I kissed him goodnight and saw how young and vulnerable he was. Sadly I couldn't wrap my arms around my father because he died in 2001 when ds was 6. I wish I could have.

@jewishorthomum I'm really enjoying this thread, thank you. As you say, I feel a kinship with you, being Jewish, although I sometimes wonder if you would consider me Jewish as I am modern/traditional. It sounds from your responses as though you are very philosophical and non judgemental so I hope so :)

I wanted to respond re the things you feel or say you may do if you weren't as orthodox:

1. Riding with your hair loose - did you do this prior to being married? Would there be places you could go, eg somewhere quite remote where you could maybe go with girlfriends who could create an area that could be 'safe' for you to do this.
2. Re tasting shellfish - this I find interesting. I am a vegetarian (for 20 years), but prior to that, I have never tasted pork or shellfish. I do eat in non kosher restaurants, and before being vegetarian I did eat non kosher chicken, but I have never had any desire to eat shellfish at all. The smell of it doesn't appeal to me. I suppose, if I really wanted to taste it I would, whereas I imagine that even if you really wanted to you just couldn't, so it is a very 'forbidden' thing?
3. Many of my close friends have only ever had sex with their husbands. We are older than you (in our early 50s), so perhaps nowadays this would be more unusual in the modern world. I think this was down to our traditional upbringing and that in those days we generally didn't live with our husbands before marriage in our circles. I think some of them wish they had had more experience in that way, but it is really just normal for us. I just thought I would highlight that, as it is to do with changing times. I'm sure there will be 50 yr olds here who had other partners too before marriage, but I guess what I'm saying is that although you see this as a 'religious' difference, it is something that many people also experience down to different values and upbringing. I think actually it is something really rather special, & I certainly don't judge anyone who has more partners, I am now divorced and I tested that water too ;)

I'm really enjoying your responses, and all the others too. There are laws that I can really see the value of, although I do choose to not observe them. No mobile phones for 25 hours every week must be bliss with teenagers!

I have another question please re Botox:

I think you responded that it is permitted, as it isn't a risk to our health, I would have presumed that it isn't ok, in the way that a tattoo is not - my understanding is that our body should remain the way it is naturally, and we should not change it. I would understand therefore if it was necessary medically, eg after a stroke/tumour, but is it permitted solely for vanity? (I don't have it, but was curious after your reply).

I appreciate your description of 'wariness' non Jews. Whilst I look Jewish to other Jews, I don't to non Jews. I wear jeans, I don't cover my hair, etc. I have been in several situations where I feel I need to say that I am Jewish, yet I always fear a negative response. Mostly they have responded that they have never met a Jew before and seem interested. Of course, I have encountered anti semitism too. As a young girl I remember being very scared being shouted at by a passing van.

I think maybe you are going to college now, but I look forward to reading more responses later, and from everyone else. Thank you all for your interest in our religion :) it is feeling a very safe and caring place here to talk about, and often it isn't.

Hi @Clawdy I answered it earlier I think. It would not be inconceivable for that generation to 'sit shiva' (i.e. mourn the child) , although the turning pictures thing I have not heard of. Every family would respond differently to a child marrying out, but for the pre-war generation, marrying out would have been a huge huge betrayal, and I am sure I have heard of people in that era sitting shiva.

Wow that is so sad.
I honestly thought this would’ve changed somewhat with the times. I totally understand that your religion is very very important to you and I know how tragically Jews have been persecuted throughout history, but to disown a child is beyond belief. I’m struggling to understand this as a parent myself. I’d like to know what the OP’s take on this is? @jewishorthomum

I mean, you don't have to do anything, no one can make you do it. And of course there are inconsiderate and unkind Jews as much as any other kind of human being!

But I have never known anyone not to sit shiva (and my family is as dysfunctional as anyone's). I don't get on with my siblings at all, but I will sit shiva with them when the time comes.

The rules about official mourners are very strict - parents, children, siblings, husband/wife. No one else can be an official mourner even if they were very close. And all of those people are official mourners, regardless of how well they got on with them in life.

Again, by taking the choice away, it also takes away a lot of possible conflict. Because you know who is meant to be officially mourning, and who isn't, and you just do it. So there's no squabbling about precedence etc.

Every Jew needs someone who can say the Mourner's Kaddish for them. They will give you this phonetically if you can't speak Hebrew, but traditionally this is one way of ensuring that the language gets passed down. You say this at the funeral, every night at the shiva, and on anniversaries. It's a powerful thing to hear because it's associated with so many deaths and mourning periods.

We also light a candle (called Yahrtzeit) every year on the (Hebrew) anniversary of the person's death, for the rest of our lives.

I'm not Orthodox and I don't follow many rules of Judaism. But I have been clear with my family that I would like to die 'Jewishly'

I am German and was taught a great deal at school about the special responsibility that Germans have to atone for the sins of our grandparents generation. Antisemitism is so ignorant and awful and yet so widespread, but I feel super awkward talking about any of that with my Jewish friend and I felt like she was a bit offended by it despite my family also dying. Should I have just totally left the subject alone? I guess I should have!

I am not speaking for the OP or for anyone else, but a lot of Jews have moved away from this way of thinking. In my family, my grandma's brother married 'out' and his father cut him off completely. (His mother and sisters used to visit in secret.)

However, I and my sister have married non-Jewish men, and the majority of my cousins of my generation have also married out. I think about half of Jews in the UK now marry non-Jews. Many of my children's friends have one Jewish and one non-Jewish parent.

Obviously there is a genuine fear (not misplaced) that this dilutes the religion and the community. But outside the Ultra Orthodox community, I don't think most British Jews feel this way any more.

My mum makes the most amazing chicken soup in the world and she doesn't use any kind of stock cube. She does use a kosher chicken though, and she simmers it for hours. I really should learn how to do it before it's too late.

Your dad clearly was a brilliant Jewish cook. Latkes and salt beef and... now I'm starving hungry at 9am!

@SisterAgatha I hear you and to an extent agree with you.

Averting their gaze from all women at all times is definitely not common practice in all chareidi circles, and is something some men, or some communities take on. It is possibly more common in some chassidish sects - maybe someone chassidish knows? There should be a balance and most orthodox men find that middle ground. None of the men I know avert their eyes from looking at women in general, or cross the street when they see a woman. However, averting their gaze from a woman in a bikini or equivalent, yes, I would expect a man not to look.

Treating all people with respect (i.e. being a 'mentch') IS fundamental to Judaism, however. Jewish feminist organisations are working to address some of the more extremist trends in the community. https://www.chochmatnashim.org/

If you fell, and needed help, and a Jewish man ignored your distress, I would say he was completely misguided.

As with most religions there are many streams and sectors and all have varying opinions about how to keep the guidelines and to what level. As an orthodox Jew I see orthodoxy as the most authentic form of Judaism and Reform less so. However, I view all Jews as Jews, and as family, regardless of their observance levels or affiliation.

The street parties are on the festival called Purim. Its lots of fun and hectictness!

There are festivals throughout the year, 3 large festivals and many smaller ones throughout the year. There is always something happening in the Jewish calendar.
My favourites would probably be Sukkas and Chanuka.

Llandudno is a very popular destination because its only over an hour away from the Manchester Jewish community . There is also a Jewish synagogue there making it a good choice for those who are particular to always pray at synagogue.
I've booked to go Mid Wales not Llandudno though.

I think less prevalent as there is more mixing of Jews from different communities in the modern world. I think
I know that the awareness of the need for genetic testing among Ashkenazi Jews has greatly reduced the incidence of Tay Sachs which is a horrific disease but wouldn't impact on genetic prevalence

Question on the period thing. If a woman's cycles are very short, such that she doesn't ever go 7 full days with no bleeding or discharge of any kind, what would happen? Is it the case of weighing things up, so the need for the 7 days is balanced against the fact that observing this means the couple could never have sex and thus never procreate?

1. yes there is no requirement to cover hair pre marriage. There are separate beaches in Israel, and I would swim with my hair uncovered, and in a swimming costume there, or at separate swimming times at a pool (but I would fully cover up before going to the changing areas if I knew there would be men). Same with separate times at the gym, unless I thought I could be seen, in which case I would cover up.
2. completely forbidden. I have never tried shellfish, pork, macdonalds, milk and meat mixed etc. I am not particularly tempted either to be honest.
3. Botox is allowed for vanity. Going under the knife for vanity reasons is definitely done, no idea about any of the halachic reasoning for and against. Tattoos are not forbidden because of vanity, but because of a strict prohibition in Leviticus. It was also the practice of a particular group of idol worshippers, and anything akin to idolatry is very forbidden in Judaism. This is one of the many reasons why tattooing in the holocaust was a particularly repugnant thing to do.

Thank you for this thread, it's been fascinating. This is the first time I've read an AMA thread right the way through!
I grew up in north west london which has large Jewish communities and I've always been interested to find out more about their faith and lifestyle. I've learnt so much, so thank you to the OP and all the other contributors too

I would completely agree.

Also my husband won't come on a poolside or beach holiday with me because of the exposure to other immodest women

I know it’s not intended to offend OP, but calling a woman immodest because she’s wearing a swimsuit on a beach or shorts and t shirt when hiking is quite strange and sexist - these are appropriate clothes to be wearing for those activities. Same goes for the PP who mentioned men stepping out of lifts when she stepped in.

I understand a man might stay away from a woman dressed very sexually in order to avoid thoughts he didn’t want, but it’s depressing to think you can be going about your everyday business and be considered to be a person to be avoided.

It’s de-humanising actually and I do find it odd a community that’s been historically persecuted would what to do that to another group of people who have been historically marginalised.

I know that’s not the root intention, but it’s something to think about.