Understanding the mixed races'(from black descent) black identity

[morine]

Being a black person with mixed race ancestors, I am quite interested in the mixed race (from black descent) population.

For a whole year I have been trying to understand why there is a confusion in the identification of mixed race people (black descent) in the UK, especially about them being called black instead of mixed race.

I have noticed that this confusion is due to various reasons but the main one is the ignorance by many (white, black and mixed race themselves) about the significant heritage the mixed race owns due to his black background.

That?s why I am going to try to help people to understand the mixed race blackness and black identity, and why he has always been called black.

Just a quick clarification about ?black?. The term ?Black? is used to identify black Africans and their descendants. That means black people from the motherland (Africa) and the Diaspora (black people/African descendants outside the mother continent. Indians are not identified as black but as East Asians.

Back to history :
African people were deported in slavery from their continent to Europe, America and the Caribbean islands. They were sold as slaves to white landlords. The history of mixed race people starts when white masters sexually abused their female black slaves. The children of black slaves and their white masters were slaves. In spite of being mixed race/half white, they were not considered as human beings but as properties just like the pure black slaves.

Mixed race slaves in time of slavery were also working hard in fields and factories just like black slaves. Their punishment was the same as the ones inflicted on black slaves. Generally when a slave had been desobedient, he was beaten badly, sometimes to death, he was castrated, he would have one or several limbs of his body amputated (hands, arms, nose, ears?). Mixed race slaves as well as black slaves were passing through the same type of punishment.
Black women and teenagers as well as mixed race women and teenagers were raped by their white masters. This was due to the fact that at that time, a slave wasn?t a human being, he didn?t have any rights, he was the property of his white master and his master had the right to do whatever he wanted with his slave.
During a period of time, slaves became more and more expensive on the market. To save money, the white master sexually abused his black or mixed race slave to have her bear children (so more slaves). The mixed race children born from the black/mixed race slaves were the property of the white master. A woman slave could have up to 15 mixed race children born slaves. The white master could do whatever he wanted with the mixed race slave children. He would use some for work and he would sell others to other white masters to build up his finances. So at that time, families were also separated.

The black slave child as well as the mixed race slave child started to learn their slave work very early, around 5/6 years old. Generally they used to start to work and help their mother in the fields. Then when they got older, stronger and more robust, they would have their own slave work and work separately from their mother.
It is also important to underline that the Black African has very strong characteristics (physical features, skin colour, hair, physical strength?) that the mixed race has also inherited, which makes him more black than white ( I know there are special cases but here I am talking in general and in time of slavery).

It also happened that the white master?s wife cheated on him with a black/mixed race slave. The mixed race child born whether from a black/mixed race slave, or from a white woman was considered as a slave. Generally the white woman, even if she wanted to raise her mixed race child, she would not be able to as it was a shame for a white woman to have a black/mixed race baby, almost a crime at that time, so she would give the baby to a slave who would raise the child.
The slavery of black and mixed race people (1/2 & 1/4 black) lasted in total about 400 years.

At one period in history, towards the end of the slavery, the 1/4 black became a ?privileged? slave because of the lightness of his skin. This particular mixed race slave was always a bit controversal. He had less burdensome slave work or he would supervise the work of the other slaves. When a punishment had to be applied, he would inflict the punishment to the disobedient slaves under the orders of his white master. That?s why the 1/4 black slave sometimes was seen as a traitor by the black and mixed race (1/2) slaves.
In spite of this, all three slaves, the black, the mixed race 1/2 black and the mixed race 1/4 black, were properties. They all needed a letter of emancipation from their white master to be set free.

After the abolition of slavery, the black, the 1/2 black and the 1/4 black were free. Now they faced the white opression through the segregation and discrimination. They build their own culture and identity : The Black.

The civil right movement didn?t only involved black people, it also involved mixed race people (1/2
and 1/4 black). During that movement all of the three were fighting together under one identity and for one race : the black race. Black people stood up for mixed race people as they were in majority, and on the other hand mixed race also stood up for black people. Because they were 1/2 and 3/4 white, it was easier for them to be received and speak in front of the white authorities in the name of the entire black race. Black people and mixed race people were organizing marches, strikes, demonstrations, boycotts? to fight under one identity and for the dignity of one race : the Black one.

Black people and mixed race people are not only linked by their blood but also by their History and culture, by what they have experienced together, and by what they have fought for.

There is no confusion here about mixed race people identifying themselves as Black, they have the best reasons to do so. The confusion comes from those who have a lack of knowledge about the History, and I perfectly understand it. The history of black people (mixed race included) is not a priority in a westernized education system.

The mixed race of black descent is not like the other mixed races. The mixed race of black descent is unique, he is part of the History and the culture of black people. Not only is he part of them but he has also contributed to their building up.
So, that?s why instead of pigeonholing themselves in a less specific and vague term ?mixed race?, they are often identified as Black.

Having said that I will support the post of someone in a previous thread who said that being Black doesn?t refer to the colour of the skin, it is being part of a History and culture. It is being involved in the building up of a heritage and identity.

Why people don?t tell the true story to those who need to know?

?Black? should not be used in terms of colour. It is not an identity based on the colour of the skin but an identity based on a History, an experience and a culture. That?s why celebrities like Mariah Carey, who has a very light mixed race skin, identifies herself as Black.
Black slaves had different skin tones, from the very dark black shade to the very light one. The blackness goes far beyond the notion of colour.

Mixed race of black descent are special. They are not like the other mixed races. They have a black identity, strongly and directly linked with their black heritage, beyond the skin appearance. Their black heritage is uncomparable to their white heritage, they are active and involved in their black History, they made it, but they are passive in their white History. Their white heritage limits itself through the blood link, but their black heritage goes far beyond it.

Today mixed race people are totally free to choose how they want to be identified, it is a personal choice we all have to respect, but it is important that they understand their black identity and their blackness. If we respect the choice of those who identify themselves as mixed race, why shouldn?t we also respect the choice of those who have chosen to identify themselves as Black?

Mixed race of black descent have a history (they share with black people), that?s what makes them different to other mixed race. That?s why I find it a bit unfair to pigeonhole them in the same term (mixed race) as the other mixed race people.

I don?t know whether the term ?Black? is the right one but at least I believe it is perfectly justified. However the term ?mixed race?, although it defines their race duality, I just feel that it is not enough to identify this minority of light skinned black people who have suffered the burden of slavery and shed their blood in the process of promoting the value of the Black race.

Would it be better to combine the two? The term ?Black? for the recognition of their involvement in the black heritage and "mixed-race" for the recognition of their race duality?

as a person with two mixed race parents I agree with vlc 00.12 post. I am firmly entrenched in position 3.

Ta CW! Don't visit the BNP site though, I implore you. It makes for a bad night's sleep.

Am excusing myself from the thread for tonight. Goodnight all. Thanks for an interesting discussion.

We do know the history. People challenging that their children be called black, are challenging racism, in a way, challenging the label.
I fully agree with vlc and I for one feel most comfortable with her point 3: "Some mixed race people prefer to represent themselves in a more 'technically accurate' way, as 'mixed race'. They want to acknowledge ALL parts of their heritage, and feel to deny either side is to belittle part of their family and dismiss part of their identity. They feel and respect and want to express the equality of their parentage."
I think also, it concerns me that someone would call my child 'black' or 'white' and I would correct them (yes he does have very white skin doesn't he, but is Dad is from Africa so he is half African and half...)
I don't want to be denied a part in my child's life, no parent does, he is half black and half white. Mixed.

Sorry I don't have much time to spend on the computer as I am busy at home. I don't have time to read today posts, too busy with the kids.

I just want to say that when i came back on this multicultural forum I felt bloody uncomfortable by the way the term "black" was used as a derogative term.

To Atch, it is not worth to attack me personally, you don't know me.

To vlc, I haven't be rude with you, don't exaggerate. I said that you miss the point because you get distracted by the subject of slavery, anyway imo. And I didn't reply to your question about 1/8 black, because being a mother of mixed race children and having a black husband I thought that you should know.

When people say things like :
"The media identified B. Obama as Black, I can't bear it up.
or, I don't want my mixed race children be called black because of the way they will see themselves..."

I am sorry to say it, I don't know if you realize how racist those comments are. Maybe because I am not used to the UK style of saying things, but in France we will see this as racist comments.

If B. Obama doesn't mind to be called black, where is your problem ? My sister lives in the USA and sorry to say it to you but Halley B does identify herself as Black, when interviewed she would say : "We black people..", please bear it up.

Where and what is your problem if a mixed race decides to identify himself as black ? LET HIM CHOSE, DON'T INTERFERE. He might see things in a different way.

Anyway I am not going to dwell on it, I can't be all the time in front of the computer. It has been a struggle yesterday with the kids.

THANK YOU FOR THE FEW OPEN_MINDED PEOPLE WHO HAVE UNDERSTOOD MY OP, UNFORTUNATELY AFTER READING THE POSTS OF MANY I SEE THAT ENGLISH PEOPLE USE THE TERM "BLACK" AS A DEROGATIVE TERM.[shocked]

Salut et Aurevoir, Too disappointed to stay [shocked].

I don't have a problem with a mixed race person identifying themselves as black. I do have a problem with mixed race people being told by others that they are black if they want to identify themselves as mixed race.

"Where and what is your problem if a mixed race decides to identify himself as black ? LET HIM CHOSE, DON'T INTERFERE. He might see things in a different way."

Where and what is your problem if a mixed race decides to identify himself as mixed race?

I still can't see any posts where people say they can't bear mixed race famous people to be called black. I also haven't seen black used in a derogative way. It is not derogative to say you don't identify yourself as black when you are not black.

I have seen posts from parents of mixed race people who say they want their child to be proud of all there heritage and don't refer to their dcs as black becasue they feel it diminishes their or their dcs fathers importance in their creation and upbringing. Why is this such a bad thing? Not all mixed race people identify themselves as black. Why should they be told they have to?

If you were to tell me that I shouldn't refer to my children as mixed or white but only by the non white ethnic group then I would find that offensive and racist. It is not for you to say that the white part of them is less important than the non white. I would also challenge people who did it the other way around ie, called them white.

Where do people use Black in a derogatory way? I haven't seen it on this thread!

People are entitled to label themselves. That's human nature.

good post little carrot
By verylittlecarrot Thu 21-Jan-10 00:12:22

i would very much like you to show me where i have attacked you, morine. if anything i feel i have tried to support you by repeatedly excusing your own rather aggressive tone as the unfortunate by-product of writing in a second language.
most people here have been measured and thoughtful in their responses, but you really are not engaging in any way other than to dictate that black/other mixed race children will always be 'black' because of (in many cases someone else's) slave history. this may indeed be true in some places, but should it be is a more interesting question.
as to your clear statement that on here 'black' is a derogatory term, shame on you. you and tanmu both should be able to discuss this subject without jumping to the outrageous conclusion that people who disagree are racist.

btw onefat, those comments were made by other people on another thread (although i note that another poster characterised the tone of that thread rather differently). i'm still not completely clear why this one was started as it clearly has not reached its target audience.

Aitch, I read the other thread, more than once. I'm just not seeing the racist, offensive 'I can't bear' stuff that the OP is seeing. I also don't see anyone on the other thread saying they have never heard of slavery and the implications tht it had on the genetic makeup of slave decendents. In fact it was specifically mentioned. I don't buy into the idea that if you don't call all mixed race people black, regardless of how they view themselves then you are a racist thicko who needs a history lecture.

oh i see, i haven't read the other thread, but i did rather suspect that it was being unfairly characterised.

"you and tanmu both should be able to discuss this subject without jumping to the outrageous conclusion that people who disagree are racist."

aitch, I never once used the term racist - Maybe my post came across in a different way to you than I intended - same way that vlc's obviously came across differently to me than she intended - she wasn't being racist, I wasn't calling anyone racist. This is a sensitive issue and misunderstandings often arise. We are all adults and should be able to discuss it without resorting to insults. Your response to me, without asking any questions to clarify what I meant before you shot off,has been quite mean.

is it your way or the high way?

[hmmm]maybe you're projecting your own misplaced indignance onto her?

You don't know me at all or know anything of my experiences or background, so the last highlighted comment I really do find utterly offensive and unecessary. pop psychology at its worst. Vlc may have wanted a polite debate - for me, you took it below the belt.

i read what i read, tanmu, it's all there in black and white, ironically enough, given the subject matter.

as far as i can see you have been very dogmatic about what's right and what's not, and others of us have simply argued for the right for the individual to choose their own 'label'. it's a completely non-controversial point, no 'indignance' required. being proud of being from two parents from different cultures and 'races' is not the same thing as being ashamed of being black, and i think it was wholly unfair of you to suggest it.

of course i whole-heartedly apologise for having caused you offence, it was not my intention.

"i read what i read, tanmu, it's all there in black and white"

I disagree.....show me where I called anyone racist.... as I said, you read something into my post that I had not intended. That's not black and white at all. I have been firm on what I and people I know feel about this issue.

apology accepted

morine, you have gone too too far. I'm appalled by your last post, it is dreadful, you are beyond reasonable. I can only try to excuse it on the grounds that you patently apear to be struggling to comprehend the thread.

I am not "distracted by slavery" - YOU ARE! I want to discuss the choices of people who feel slavery has NO relevance to them personally, and you are not accepting or respecting the choices of those people.

Ironically, my mixed race DH is, like yourself, French. And once again, you presume to speak for a whole group of people - and once again you are very wrong to do so. Your silly statement about "I don't know if you realize how racist those comments are. Maybe because I am not used to the UK style of saying things, but in France we will see this as racist comments."

No. You are wrong. Speak only for yourself. Don't claim "in France we think this" or "mixed race people think that".

My French, mixed race husband chooses to be defined as MIXED RACE. not black and not white. And if he, or I, or anyone else choose how we want to be defined, it is offensive for someone else - like you - to try to dictate to us what we should be called.

And in your last post, you once again referred to my DH as 'black'!!!! despite his preference being mixed race.

Don't call him black. He isn't black, and he does not want to be called this.
Don't call him white. He isn't white, and he does not want to be called this.

Don't tell him HE is racist because he is offended by your ignorant assumption that he SHOULD prefer the label YOU have chosen for him.

How dare you suggest that English people use black as a derogatory term.

Shame on you. What a nasty, untrue, vicious and harmful post. You should be ashamed.

okay, since you ask, tanmu, i feel that there is a very clear inference of racism in this post to vlc.

By tanmu82 Wed 20-Jan-10 23:08:10
verylittlecarrot, maybe you would be offended at your children being referred to as 'black' over 'mixed race', but as your children are actually just 1/4 black, few people are likely to make that 'mistake'. Speaking as someone who is very obviously not white, I take absolutely no offence at being referred to as black. In fact I am proud. Why are you so indignant over the use of 'black' to describe mixed race? I don't know any mixed race person who would take offence - I actually think that those who prefer to be called 'mixed race' are in the minority and I don't suppose even they would actually take offence to being called black. Why should we? It's not a bad thing to be black so why should it be offensive? I am really struggling with your use of that word in this context.

and morine, i have just read the other thread. you should have posted on there. by your own admission you didn't even read the thread before posting. and obama is not mentioned in the manner you suggest.

(and since 2005 it's only garnered 150 posts so it's hardly a fierce free-for-all. )

By AitchTwoOhOneOh Thu 21-Jan-10 10:12:30

"....being proud of being from two parents from different cultures and 'races' is not the same thing as being ashamed of being black....."

This is a very, very good point. It goes to the heart of what it is to be mixed race, and proud of it, for many people.

The only "offensive" part is not respecting individual's wishes. If someone says they describe themselves as x then that's it, no debate. You might ask them politely for their reasons if you know them well enough to have that sort of very personal conversation.

The reasons why people choose to describe their heritage in a certain way interest me enormously. My eldest ds could easily pass as black (I am white) and he has black friends who are lighter skinned than he is. When he says he is mixed race he sometimes has to clarify that he really does have a genetically white parent. So, it might be easier for him to call himself black if he doesn't feel like launching into a description of his family tree. Similarly, my youngest could pass himself off as white -I have lost count of how many times he has been asked where he gets his lovely curly from!

Interestingly, this has made me realise how very uncomfortable I would feel if my child chose to exclude his black heritage from his own description of himself. But I wouldn't mind at all if any of my children chose to call themselves black. But that's about me, not them.

Where will it all end? My daughter was in a longterm relationship with a boy from Bangladesh. If they had children what label would they have had? Given a few more generations this conversation may be obsolete or at least very different. Or will it?

Curly hair for my youngest ds not curly wurly or anything like that!

Intersting thread, I have just spent far too long reading through it.

I KNOW it was a thread about Black mixed races but I just wanted to add that as the white mother of two mixed race boys I adore the fact that they love being half chinese and half english, DS1 counts himself as mixed, he is not 100% either.

There are descendants of slavery to which I guess the op applies but for any other mixed race I agree with the majority view on here that it is totally up to the individual.

you're like a dog with a bone aitch. you apologised, I accepted. Just leave it at that - in fact, seeing as though your apology was obviously insincere I def won't be part of this thread anymore I'd rather not have to deal with your incessant picking on. I joined mumsnet for discussion, not bullying

oh my god, tanmu, you actually said 'show me where i said she was racist', and so i responded by showing you where, as far as i was concerned, you inferred vlc was racist... you are once again being totally unfair.

my apology was sincere, i meant you no offence. i still don't. however, shame on you for calling 'bullying'. it's the last resort of someone who's cross that everyone's not falling over themselves to agree with them.

Tanmu82 and Aitch please don't argue, this will not change anything to the way the society is.

About the slavery I just want to say that when a racist white person behaves badly with a black or mixed race person, he doesn't care whether the black or mixed race person is from a slave descent or not. For him a N....r is a N....r whatever his origins. Thats why all black people and many mixed race are affected by it. I am not from a slave descent but I have faced discrimination and racist abuses and I know that it is because of the consequences of slavery. Even if I am not from a slave descent, the consequences of slavery affect me as they affect every black people (and many mixed race) from slave descents or not, from the mother continent or from the diaspora.

My OP was trying to reply to the questions people were answering in the thread "Are mixed race pp black" These are some in P1 :

START "I have never understood why although someone with two white parents is "white" and someone with two black parents is "black", someone with one of each is also called "black" a lot of the time. This is one of my bugbears too.

It isn't really possible to pin such a label on mixed-race people, as everyone's experience is different. It is possible to be mixed race but be brought up in either a completely white or completely black environment, and in these cases your perception of yourself would be very different.

I'm not explaining myself very well here, I guess what I'm saying is that you should not label someone as black just because they are not 100% white." END

Then my post was going in the same way as Crouchingtigeress who is a mixed race person.

START : "Crouchingtigeress : wed 19 jan 2005 Page 6
You know what, I wish the article just referred to "Black women's achievements", as I feel both mixed-race women AND Asian women come under this 'category'.

My identity is Black and my ethnic origin is Caribbean - Irish, I feel the two are very different things (the former being subjective and the latter, objective).

I really don't want to offend any mums, but I think there seems to be some fear of the term Black, as if your children claiming this identity ignores your existence, I don't think this should be the case.

Black is not about skin colour, having two black parents or ignoring our white ancenstry it is simply a cultural term, which means a whole lot more than the miscellaneous term 'mixed race'.

That's just my opinion

I think you've misunderstood me. I don't see Black as a racial term, therefore your daughter wouldn't be associating herself with your husband, and ignoring yours. If your husband, was African-Carribean, and she only called herself that, then she would be.
Franch
I don't think Black, "oversimplifies things and denies her distinct experience", on the contrary I think it would enrich her 'distinct experience'.

What do you think about Black History month? Does it offend you? Would you like to see Bob Marley, Booker T washington, WEB Du Bois, Malcom X and Mary Secole's achievenments celebrated in a separate month?
END.

Me Morine ,I couldn't find the post about B. Obama, it is actually in the same thread "Are mixed race black people ?", the person wrote : "The media identifie B. Obama as black, I can't bear it". I am sure she is not a racist person and she didn't certainly pay attention but it is not good to say things in this way. You might not think that it can offend people but it does. It can offend many black people and mixed race who identify themselves as Black. Just say things in an easy way like "The media identify B.Obama as black but he is not Black, he is mixed race" thats all, don't add " I can't bear it, or i can't stand it ...".

Myself I have offended mixed race people without realizing it. One day a mixed race said to me that : " I'am not black, I am mixed", and I replied : "What's wrong with black?", this offended him but I didn't know that this would offend him, and I apologised.

It is already hard to live in a racially divided society,and I guess It might be hard for you white people too, as you might not know what to say or what not to sat, or how to say, but I can tell you that it is even harder for mixed race people. Just say think in an easy way without adding personal comments. Thats why coming from France I don't think that the society needs to identify people and put them into categories. I don't like the racial division in the UK as it affects me very badly.

People mix a lot in France and are quite open to each other, above all towards the south. Mixed race people live in the both cultures of their backgrounds and don't need to identify themselves as something. They fit in the white community as well as in the black community because people are open to each other, people experience each other cultures. We don't need to identify ourselves in race categories. When we identify ourselves we say : white French and mat complexion French (black, mixed race, arabs).

When I saw the Ethnicity form for the first time I was shocked and I didn't tick it and I have never ticked any box of it, and I will never tick any box, and I will tell my children not to tick any box, and I will tell them that they don't need to tick any box. The French society doesn't need it, does the British society really need it ? If yes why?

it's just for stats, to track the changing population, don't tick it if you don't want to.

and it's interesting, given what sarkozy's doing to muslims who want to wear the burqua, to hear france held up as the colour-blind country.

Aitch, Sarkozy wants a homogeneous society. You would be surprised but it is when people start to wear the burqua and start to differenciate themselves from others that they attract hatred, without wanting it.

Many Muslims are open, and most of them don't even wear the veil, they say that they don't need to.