When the joint finances suddenly aren't so joint after you've raised the kids....

[RachelBee]

Hi

Would be great to get some advice regarding finances.

My husband earns a very good salary and as his income has increased over the years I left my career and found myself taking the lead on childcare (including covering all the holidays), sorting out all the household jobs and admin, looking after his accounts for a few hours a week and taking on some relatively low-paid part time work so I can have some income.

We have a joint account but as it's my husband's earnings I try not to touch it. I have dipped into it every now and then but it would only to sort out something for the household and for the children.

We were talking about getting some financial advice so we could plan for the next few years and he made it clear that the money in the joint account was his as he had earned it. I was talking about getting a couple of ISAS - one in each of our names with some of the savings sat in the joint account - but he said he would only put one in his name not mine as I hadn't earned it. I felt rather shocked by this. He has also told me that he would only meet a financial advisor without me.

I've also been getting incredibly frustrated at not being able to make decisions about the house as I don't earn the money. We really need to update our house a bit. But he always says no.

I feel like such a fool. I'm always overdrawn after the school holidays and today he asked me how it felt to be my age and to be overdrawn. It felt so humiliating.

I would love to earn what he earns and to call the shots. I do try to see it from his point of view and when I do I can see I probably look like a freeloader.

I have two more teens to go and in the next couple of years I plan on returning to work full time and to earn my own money. I don't at the moment as I still have to do the school run (we live in a small village) and I still cover all the school holidays. We have no friends or family around to look after the kids. And I thought we have enough income to allow me to be here for the children.

So...I guess I'm asking for someone to tell me if I need a reality check.

Are there any rights about this or should I seek a financial advisor myself.

Is this common after women begin to reach the end of their child caring years and haven't earned much?

@GameWheelsAlarm That depends on what you want from marriage. No way would i want to not be out working and earning money at any point unless I was genuinely unwell enough not to. I don't expect my husband to go out and earn while I stay at home for years after my kids are in school.
Also, I'm protecting.myslrf in case of divorce further down the line and showing my kids that earning money outside of the home is important.
For us, marriage is about both finaxially contributing to our household and both doing an equal share of childcare and housework. We don't subscribe to the traditional gender roles as we don't agree with them.

get a lawyer to breakdown what the cost, to him, would be if you left and took your entitlement.

And then tell him to pull his head out of his backside and share like a decent husband/father. Or you will indeed light the blue touch-paper.

Lots of reasons- maybe she didn’t want the kids to have to go to another child setting after a long day at school and wanted to take them home / to clubs in the evenings. She says she does part time work during the day.
Maybe her husband wouldn’t pay for childcare after school out of ‘his money’ and expected her to pay for 3+ children in after school childcare if she wanted to work?
He earns enough and they didn’t need the money - maybe she was lead to believe her valuable contribution to the household- I.e raising the children, was valued by him and is only now finding out it wasn’t.

OP, I think you are a frog who has realised, just in time, how hot the water is getting.

Take the good advice given about your row of ducks, solicitor, etc. and get out of that water before it boils with him holding the controls. He's already trying harder to control by lying.

Good luck. 🤗

Luckily for me, my husband values looking after the kids 1000% and believes it holds every bit much value as him working. He would have been fine if I had wanted to work more (and put children in a childminders) but that was never something I wanted to do- it’s been the highlight of my life picking them up every day, walking home, taking them to lots of clubs and seeing them progress in their chosen activity. For my 3 children combined it was only 10 years of primary school. Gone in a flash. Never get those years back. I was there for almost every drop off, pick up, assembly sports day and every other event. To me worth all the money I could earn in a life time. DH was more than happy as he wanted at least one of us to be there for them outside of school. It all goes too quickly.

Great - as long as they can afford it
I've got a 5 year old and a 6 year old and managed to work and spend loads of time with them.

Raising children and keeping the home is work. Just unpaid, thankless work that isn't valued by many.

That was my first thought too.

I believe he engineered this from the very begining and engaged the wife in free labour for many years so he could build "his" savings then made sure she had nothing. It was not in his best interest to make a honest financial agreement with her at the begining of the marriage. I do find a bit strange the OP is realizing now her unfair situation. She was definately gaslit.

I've just read your replies and I'm really shocked. It seems you don't value the unpaid work you do as actual work so why should he?

How much would he have to pay a bookkeeper to do his accounts every week? How much would taxis be for his children? How much is a cleaner?

You both need to start valuing the unpaid work you do. If you divorced a court would value it.

He is not going to change his views on 'his' money. My ex was like this and he would be able to go on trips to festivals with friends or away for the weekend with his friends and I was left at home looking after our childern.

Going back to work full time when you live rurally is not always as simple as people think. Where I lived with my ex there were a few buses a day, but not many. I left my career and had to get a job that worked around school times as his work was odd shifts and he usually couldn't do any school runs at all. If I had carried on my career path I was on I would have been earning at least double what I am on now.

I am so much happier now on my own with the kids. I know exactly what money is coming in to the house and it is easier to manage. I am retraining into a career that I feel more aligns with who I am and will also allow me much more earning potential.

You need to think carefully how your future looks and especially retirement if he seems to think that the years you have been in the marriage, supporting him and raising your children mean so little to him.

OP has explained all of this several times in updates. She did return to full time work for a time when the kids started school - they moved to a rural area and it was no longer possible. And OP says she has never not worked. She balances part time working from home with all the household and child stuff. Her DH is financially abusing her - why are you trying to excuse it ?

you've a) knocked that on the head now, right? and b) made out invoices going back as long as you have been doing that?

Work out the costings of what support you need if you worked full time hours (taking DC to school, housework, shopping etc etc)

And then tell him how much, in monetary value, you have contributed over the years. Compared to his actual monetary contributions.

We REALLY need to teach this stuff to girls at school.

This. Now.

Because lots of people think that unless you work full time, you are a free loader. Particularly if you have children- looking after them any amount of hours instead of working is considered dossing. Like actually looking after your own children is worth nothing, seen as far less than. Which in my opinion 1. Is pretty offensive to childcare workers. 2. Is what they tell themselves to salve their guilt when their children only get to spend 1 hour before bed per day with them and most things you are invited to watch / be part of at school with the children have to be missed. As always in our capital society, ‘things’ are valued more than time

He's used you for unpaid labour and built his career on you handling everything else.

You need to stop immediately. Start looking for full time jobs. Tell him that the school runs are now up to him. Stop running his accounts for him. "Wife work" is for women with decent husbands who respect them.

In your situation, I'd be looking for a divorce but if that's not what you want then you need a major shift in the dynamics of your relationship.

Take your time and quietly find out where all the money is....then either insist it's held equally (either in ISAs or in trust for your children. If he still isn't agreeable, then find a good lawyer....

I'd advise any adult never to become financially dependent on another human being. Know where the money is and how to access it. I told one of my friends this recently, she heard it as 'don't be a stay at home mum and go back to work"....that wasn't the message...just don't be financially dependent on anyone else.

I wonder if you had turned to him and replied with

How does it feel to have got to your age and not able to comprehend that marriage was a legal contract

I wouldn’t actually say that to him as that would be giving him notice. Get copies/screenshots of all bank/pension/investments then go for a divorce. In the UK every asset (apart from lottery wins etc that have been kept in sole names only)

Do a quick reckoning of how much equity is in the house both of your pensions, savings, investments, any other property, land, businesses etc you have as well as cars, furniture, jewellery, etc. Then divide by 2 and that is the starting point.
Then there is Child Maintenance and all of the childcare and everything you are currently paying for will be a shared

Friends exh said everything was his as he was the one to earn it.
The judge disagreed and awarded friend 70% of the marital assets

She took the large detached and owned outright family home and a smaller portion of savings.
He got to keep his pension, business and a rental property and the rest of the savings

It will only get worse if you stay and bury your head in the sand. My thoughts are that when a partner starts giving those little digs they are thinking about leaving, more than likely because they are thinking about some one else and don’t want to be seen as the “bad guy” who divorced their spouse and are testing the waters of how far they can push before their spouse throws in the towel.

The idea being to keep the spouse uncomfortable but not to the point of divorce until they have actually get someone else.

@SirBasil It would be far better in schools to teach financial independence and the importance of it.

@PalePinkPeony And what if - shudder the thought - your children fall in love with someone who isn't wealthy enough for them to give up paid work for years?

Simple really. Divorce. Engage forensic accountant. Be sure to get half of any pension(s). Start the process today. Good luck.

The law in England does not discriminate between homemaker and breadwinner eg https://osborneslaw.com/blog/breadwinner-homemaker/
It is likely as financially weaker party the op would get a bigger share of assets as lower mortgage and earning capacity 55-60% or higher is not unusual.
Her problem is he has his own business and may hide money or quit (some lawyers will tell a man in this position to quit work for the duration of a divorce to avoid spousal maintenance or mesher order / delayed sale).
It doesn’t matter why they decided to share their responsibilities in this way or what others would do differently. They made the choice jointly in the courts eyes.
FWIW it’s classic abuser move to live rurally, away from family, friends and work opportunities, have babies, not share childcare due to ‘big job’, trap wife in dependent / caring role and then limit access joint money. If he had planned to abuse her this is exactly what he would have done.

@BigCity This was not my experience in court at all. I was told to up my working hours to full earning capacity as I should have done within the marriage. My ex-husband was a qualified accountant suddenly with his own business.
I would tell you about our living situation vs his and child custody arrangements a decade after divorce but it's probably not the right place.

It's very fortunate that you have skills and high employability. If you want to stay with him (why?), this is what I would do:

Stop doing his accounts and rationalise household busy-work to the minimum

Get a full-time job, and hire a childminder for the school run

Check your state pension entitlement (his FA will recommend he transfer ISA and pension money to you for tax efficiency, but it sounds like he won't take that advice)

If he leaves you, you should be entitled to half of all assets including the house, savings, and pension. Create a dossier of what and where everything is, also including any insurance products.

As an absolute minimum, he needs to start paying you, and at a proper market rate, for the accounts work you’re doing for him. You must have saved him a fortune over the years.

BigCity
If he has his own business then accounts will be available on line.
If there is a trend of the business earning £100,000 per year profit and his salary is £50,000 per year then on divorce proceeding the business suddenly only earns £10 per year and he pays himself £5 then it’s going to look dodgy.

Friends exh tried to say he only earned a really tiny amount (think pence per hour) but as she could prove he was solely paying for 2 of his childrens rent and living expenses whilst they were at university and their 3rd child’s private school fees and was about to do the same for 3rd child who was about to go to university the judge got quite angry and told him to revise his numbers.