DH and money -How can I get through to him that young children are expensive?

[imsureiusedto]

My DH is obsessed with the idea that we are on the verge of ruin. It’s putting intolerable strain on my marriage and I keep questioning if I want to be with him at all. When I raise it things improve for a while but a few weeks later revert.

We have two children who are four and one (two in midsummer.) I think it’s since younger child was born that this narrative started appearing and it’s now seeping into everything. He is constantly complaining. I work three days a week and I earn just under £2000 (I am talking in terms of take home pay.) He works full time and he earns more than double that, but I do also have a rental property which brings me around £450 so that helps. So we obviously earn well.

After a while I decided that I just wasn’t going to talk money with DH and that I’d pay for what I needed and in effect act like I was single from a financial point of view. This sort of worked for a while but this month has been an expensive one. So yesterday we spent

DDs swimming lesson (I pay for kids swimming)
DS soft play (he can’t swim at the moment due to an ear infection but I obviously didn’t want him to miss out)

Then I took them into town. My shoes broke on Friday so I was going to get a new pair. DH gave me his card; I stupidly said yes. Bought my shoes (£30) and lunch for the kids at m and s.

Then DDs dance - I paid for.

I am absolutely fed up of it. Does he think they can’t eat or that their activities should be curtailed when we earn well?

I'm curious, OP. Do you go on family holidays and who pays for them?

I wonder how much disposable income he has each month, presumably he still has some left over from ~£5k after paying the mortgage and other fixed bills, plus his expensive car and expensive hobby... I expect he has enough to put money in savings or buy himself whatever he wants.

Meanwhile, you earn ~£2k and pay for all childcare, food and household items, children's activities, clothes and shoes, and I bet you pay for birthday and Christmas presents too, that kind of thing. I'm guessing it's often that you have nothing left at the end of the month. You have debts rather than savings.

He criticises you for spending money on essential and reasonable expenses. But laughs about it when he spends an extra £200 unnecessarily.

And he wants you to reduce your working hours... why? So he can make you feel even more inadequate for earning less than him, when you're doing more childcare? So he can criticise you even more for spending money you don't have?

He's financially abusive and you're in denial.

You should LTB but sadly I don't think you will.

My DH has no idea what things cost as he never buys anything, especially with increases due to COL. We pool our money - joint account but have a budget. So example being we have 2 teen DD. So expensive! Our budget for “shopping” on a weekend is £400 a month. So if my DD needs a coat then that would be out of that. Otherwise it’s load of toiletries etc. We also have an eating out budget at £300 a month. For things like brunch on a Sunday etc. It just means we are tracking our money and not overspending and are saving a certain amount each month. Maybe discuss a monthly budget for softplay etc. I keep a spreadsheet which I update daily.

I know this isn't the point of the whole post but I would say swimming lessons are essential. Every child needs to know how to swim! He can't begrudge that!

They’re his kids, kids cost money. What did he think would happen with them. They would just sit there like lumps of coal and not eat or grow. God, they have no trouble making them, they just don’t want anything to do with them.

dear @imsureiusedto, I"ve read many, tho' not all, of the posts on this thread. It's not really about money, is it? That's just the clearly visible symptom.

It's about your DH's personality, his attempts to control and his lack of understanding / empathy about dealing with & caring for little ones.
I sense he's not going to get any better.
In the long run you're going to exit this relationship. I feel it's a question of how you plan to do that. Having a rational, time-planned & economically viable exit plan is important.

You'll need NOT to share that with your (not-so)D H until you've got all your ducks in a row.

You are taking far too much responsibility for this issue, he is gaslighting you whether he is doing it maliciously or not but do not bare any responsibility for this issue. It is him, not you.

The simple truth is you both working and i'm assuming when he is in paid work and you aren't you are either looking after the kids or doing house admin - shopping, cooking, tidying. So that is equal. I hope you do equal amounts in the evening/weekend - but I suspect not as this is rare.

It sounds as though you spend almost all your salary on the children/family with very little left over ( otherwise you would have built up a savings buffer as you definitely do not come across as a fool). Whereas your husband sounds as though he must have money left over from his salary to pursue an expensive hobby, so that is very unequal. You should have the same proportion of salary left over for your own personal spending - so that is very unfair.

As for your spending habits - they just seem bloody normal. Almost everyone goes to Tesco's for one thing and comes out with a whole lot of other stuff, and unless it doesn't get used and gets thrown away - buying all these other things that you will use or eat, then it's not being frivolous!

Ice creams, swimming lessons, soft play, emergency lunches and not so emergency lunches are all very normal when you're a busy working family with a comfortable income.

Your husband sounds like a total dick about money, he shouldn't be lending you money at the end of the month, he should be just bloody transferring you extra money if you need it as it sounds like he has far higher proportion of disposable income, which isn't fair.

I don't know what the answer is, but please stop taking so much blame.

Is he really inflexible in other ways or is it just finances? What is his families attitude towards money?

I'm sorry you're in this situation
It sounds very difficult.

Hi OP. I can relate to some aspects of what you are saying, my DH worries constantly about money and always thinks we are on the verge of financial ruin. The main issue is he is totally unrealistic about what most things cost and because I’m the one who has the children more I naturally spend the money when they need something which means I’m the main ‘spender’ of our money and this makes it easy to paint me as some sort of spendthrift when in reality, as you say, it’s just life with young children - they constantly need stuff ! I often wish he would have a week with them so he would see how hard it is not to spend money.

However, here is the thing. All our money is pooled - because we are married, with kids!! we both work (unless I’m on mat leave) and every month we pool everything, take a bit (the same amount as each other so it’s fair) for personal spends in accounts which are not joint and can’t be monitored by the other. The rest is joint so goes on bills and day to day spends. It’s not complicated and any other arrangement is not fair, sorry.

It’s totally bizarre and abusive for this not to be the case once you have kids, I’m afraid. I only know one other woman who has your set up, where he pays bills and she pays for ‘whatever the kids need’ and I and the rest of all our friends believe she is being financially abused and we are tearing our hair out over it.

You talk as if you can separate ‘the way he is with money’ from the rest of your marriage. But I think deep down you know you can’t. Money is emotional, it touches everything. This is where he shows you who he is, and not unfairly, your resentment over it is poisoning the rest of your relationship. He needs to really be made to understand the extent of this.

I’m not being over dramatic here - I would explain the above to him, calmly annd in a loving way. I’d show him - written down- what he would be forced to give me in a divorce- and demonstrate to him in numbers how much better I’d be as a single parent. I would then explain that I needed joint finances. I would need this from him to demonstrate that we really were a marriage; a team; a partnership. If he refused, I would 100 per cent leave my husband over it. Marriage is nothing if not a partnership and it should be one which makes things financially easier in lots of ways. It is ludicrous that you’d be better off financially if you were alone. if this was me, that’s where I’d be heading.

@newbie101 when I went back to work, when the DC were 5 and 9, I started to pay for what the children needed in the context of clothes and out of school activities. It wasn't abuse. DH paid all the bills including food. It worked very well for us. And in 35 years of marriage we have never had a joint account.

The way around this is to say to him we need laundry powder, please pick some up when you are at work and let him see how much stuff is.

I’d just like to thank @Newbie1011 and @Prettydress in particular for that clear post. In particular you’re right that I’ve tried to separate the two things and can’t.

I don’t think that the marriage is abusive but I think it’s becoming that way. Im
no fool and won’t stay in an abusive marriage but equally it’s hard when I think that’s not the intention sometimes. But because I’m often on the defensive things are tricky.

I know you think therapy is a waste of time but I do think telling him it's joint therapy or the marriage is over gets it through to him that it's last chance saloon.

You could just do a couple of sessions and focus on his attitude about money. As part of that ask him about savings and insists he clears your mat leave debt. It's ridiculous he assumed you could afford everything on a reduced salary.

If you do use a therapist ring around tell them the issue, get a good feel for them before meeting them etc.

I think it's already tipped into abuse because you can't be open and honest because of his reaction and there is a power imbalance. It may not be deliberate on his part but that is where you are current at.

I really hope you resolve it properly with him.

Why isn't he paying towards the children?

Why do you have completely separate finances when you have children together?

What exactly does he contribute to your family??

@RosesAndHellebores sorry rereading my post - I didn’t intend to suggest that any arrangement without joint finances is abusive (although I think what is happening to the OP is tipping into that - and what’s happening to my friend is definitely that way as she is constantly in her overdraft paying for the kids’ nursery fees out of her maternity pay while he swans off on overseas lads trips with his spare cash - but he insists it’s fair because he pays the mortgage and ‘bills’ - no matter about the fact she is on maternity leave/ doing all the childcare so can’t increase her earnings!)

I don’t think what you describe is abusive obviously but I admit I don’t really understand why a couple with children wouldn’t just ensure things are fair by pooling all the family money and splitting it equally - especially in the context of the gender pay gap, motherhood penalty, etc etc. I just think this is what marriage is! And it should apply to everything in my opinion - mat pay, bonuses, inheritance, £100 win on the lottery, whatever!

Op it is weird. That’s not saying YOU are weird. Why are you so defensive? It’s saying that you shouldn’t just accept this from your DH. It’s not fair. If you divorce he will have to pay you and won’t be able to judge what you spend it on…

What makes it abusive is the constant criticism of your spending. The fact that you regret rescheduling your hair appointment because you had to ask him for money to pay for it, and he made you feel as if you shouldn't have done that. All these tiny things that he has conditioned you to think are normal. They are not. I think the boiled frog analogy applies here.

Looking at that list, I wouldn't be surprised if you're paying disproportionately more out of your salary than he is for your overall family costs.

You really need to address this with him the next time he makes a comment. Especially since he has an expensive hobby yet openly begrudges you doing anything with the children .

Hi OP. I can relate to some aspects of what you are saying, my DH worries constantly about money and always thinks we are on the verge of financial ruin. The main issue is he is totally unrealistic about what most things cost and because I’m the one who has the children more I naturally spend the money when they need something which means I’m the main ‘spender’ of our money and this makes it easy to paint me as some sort of spendthrift when in reality, as you say, it’s just life with young children - they constantly need stuff ! I often wish he would have a week with them so he would see how hard it is not to spend money.

I have had that with my DH more now that we have 3 bottomless teenagers. I am also the main 'spender' of our money as well, and whenever he questions a large Tesco bill, for example, I ask him what I shouldn't have bought. It's easy to say they don't need 'snacks' but the reality is they do. They need a lot of calories (they're all very sporty as well). And he wants snacks, too. And much better to pick them up in a big shop than at the local convenience store where items are considerably more expensive. And I do make him go to the store a bit more often now to pick up 'dinner items' so he can see for himself how much everything costs these days.

You know this is going to get worse and worse don't you, especially once they hit primary school and then secondary school, the costs will be ginormous compared to now!! How will he cope then? I think you need to have one last talk with your husband that he is being stingy selfish and controlling and that financial abuse and guilting you is abuse and tell him you are considering seeing a divorce solicitor and this is his 'last chance saloon' to change things around or its over (and tell him you will be financially fine if not better on your own). Tell him life is for living, whingeing about money is a turnoff as is his stinginess. That you don't recognise the man you married and you really mean it you want a divorce if he doesn't do a 180 on money and right now.

@thescandalwascontained It's so frustrating isn't it!!

I also think - differently from some PPs - that it's inherently problematic to have this arrangement where oh, the 'childrens' costs' including their childcare, is paid for by the mother, and other ('serious/ manly costs'?) like mortgage and utilities, are paid for by the man.

For one thing, it is so obviously based on - and reinforcing of - the idea that the children and their care is the default responsibility of the mother and that childcare is not a joint, family need but essentially the mother subcontracting her default role. Otherwise, why would those costs be only hers to shoulder?

If you're equal parents and partners surely the only thing that makes sense is to jointly agree the childcare you BOTH need for your (joint) children, and buy the best childcare you can jointly afford?

If, instead, you're a husband asking the mother to shoulder the whole burden of the childcare costs, even if you pay for other things, it's just a crap deal for the mother. The woman can't win - she can either choose the best childcare and have little other money for all the other things the children need, or choose the cheapest, least good childcare to make space in 'her' budget for everything else.

Also under this arrangement, the man has predictable fixed costs which don't vary month to month, which he knows he can afford and will leave money left over for him.

The woman has the childcare cost, which is something which is variable depending on quality and amount, which needs to change over time, and which requires regular recalibration, and which is also bound up in a lot of anxiety and stress. And on top of that she has the incredibly complex mental load of managing a budget and finding, ordering, researching and paying for every other tiny thing the children need, from food (planning this spend to ensure it's healthy, on-budget and with minimal waste) to after school clubs and wraparound care (again, arrangements which can be complex and change on a regular basis) to anything else: tutors, sports equipment, bike helmets, scooters, outerwear, shoes and clothing in the correct size, style and season - all needs which are constantly shifting and changing. How can the mental /financial / time burden of this possibly be compared to a mortgage or utilities payment once a month, which is probably automated?!

Sorry for the long post but it gives me the absolute rage what some men get away with. And then have the audacity to moan about a lunch out or a few quid on a soft play ticket. Give me a break!

If he’s not contributing to the children in any way what is he doing with all his money? You talk about things being tight, I’m assuming you mean just for you! How is it fair you are struggling and paying everything for his children, and he is keeping all his money?

I've read through all the posts and noticed that you are thinking of dropping some hours next year. I think you also said your DH was in favour of this. I would just caution that you think carefully considering your DH's attitude to money at the moment. I think if you drop hours you would need to make sure your DH would cover the drop in salary for you otherwise you may find yourself in a bit of a bind. Apologies if I picked your post up incorrectly.

I was in the same situation once myself. Hope you can work it all out.

@IIlolamay - j have raised this with him and told him I’m worried because I’m getting a hard time now and he does need to accept that if I’m doing very reduced hours because of school he needs to accept that comes at a cost, it is unfair otherwise. But as much as he’ll agree with that it doesn’t seem to stop the spluttering when I buy extra washing up liquid. The whole thing is odd really.

Have you asked him how much he thinks the weekly equivalent supermarket shop is?

I reckon he's completely out of touch.

Start buying one piece of meat/fish whatever to share.

Is he buying his own lunch at work everyday? How can he afford that?

Might be a long shot, but I'm ADHD and rather than the majority with it who overspend, I always feel I'm on the brink of losing everything and living on the streets. I feel if I spend anything, we'll be homeless. The reality is, I haven't even needed to touch my savings in years. Eventually I've had to try and accept it's something I feel that isn't real, as DH said I was worrying the kids that we were impoverished. Could your DH be similar in some way?

I don’t think he is out of touch, he knows what things cost.