DH and money -How can I get through to him that young children are expensive?

[imsureiusedto]

My DH is obsessed with the idea that we are on the verge of ruin. It’s putting intolerable strain on my marriage and I keep questioning if I want to be with him at all. When I raise it things improve for a while but a few weeks later revert.

We have two children who are four and one (two in midsummer.) I think it’s since younger child was born that this narrative started appearing and it’s now seeping into everything. He is constantly complaining. I work three days a week and I earn just under £2000 (I am talking in terms of take home pay.) He works full time and he earns more than double that, but I do also have a rental property which brings me around £450 so that helps. So we obviously earn well.

After a while I decided that I just wasn’t going to talk money with DH and that I’d pay for what I needed and in effect act like I was single from a financial point of view. This sort of worked for a while but this month has been an expensive one. So yesterday we spent

DDs swimming lesson (I pay for kids swimming)
DS soft play (he can’t swim at the moment due to an ear infection but I obviously didn’t want him to miss out)

Then I took them into town. My shoes broke on Friday so I was going to get a new pair. DH gave me his card; I stupidly said yes. Bought my shoes (£30) and lunch for the kids at m and s.

Then DDs dance - I paid for.

I am absolutely fed up of it. Does he think they can’t eat or that their activities should be curtailed when we earn well?

I'm sorry to keep coming back, I don't know if this is any help, since couples therapy isn't a go.

Something I wish I'd done with my first husband was to take the piss a lot more, and to push back much harder. I was completely unable to deal with his 'aggressive stone wall first' response style as it was like nothing id experienced before. And yet at the end if the relationship when id stopped caring i pushed back more and i noticed that he often retreated.

If he says something like FIFTEEN POUNDS then what about just laughing? Don't justify yourself, tell him he's being ridiculous, which he is. You're paying childcare which is ?40% of your take home pay (sorry I've lost track of the figures). You went to the shop to buy food! Which you're also responsible for. So tell him 'no shit Sherlock the fucking food fairy is off sick again this week so muggins here paid. 15 quid, not bad eh? Did you want to eat?'

You're right, things will get better financially and it could just be a phase. I hope you will get past it. A friend of mine with a complicated relationship recommended the book Rapport which she read with her partner. They're still together so it might be worth a look?

Hi OP, you are getting a hard time on here, MN can be brutal. I just wondered how he knows what you are spending on the kids if you split things? Does he keep tabs somehow?

Don’t apologise @PermanentTemporary . I do appreciate people replying, it’s just the insults that get to you (not you obviously.)

@DownThePubWithStevieNicks it’s true I don’t know exactly what DH earns. I know it used to be £4,500 take home but thinking about it that will have been three years ago so probably is closer to 5000. Either way it doesn’t matter. I don’t think that my numbers have been ‘all over the place’ it is just that things aren’t identical month to month. Childcare for example is variable according to whether there is a holiday in that month or not. As well as this my own salary has been erratic because I have had time off for unwell children I am not paid for. I haven’t gone into all this because I obviously don’t want to bore people stupid with ‘well on the 10th, 13th and 24th January I wasn’t in because my children were unwell so I was £300 down that month but then I didn’t have to pay childcare for the first week due to the Christmas holidays …’ so I’ve gone with estimates. And to be honest the exact amounts shouldn’t matter, fair enough they would if I was asking re budgeting but well, I’m not.

If you think you will be happier without him and you can manage financially then leave . Your children are very young and they will adapt quickly. It’s obvious you are their main carer .

I get that you’re not asking about budgeting OP. I don’t think you’re asking how to split things more fairly either, simply for how to get him to stop making comments about your spending?

He won’t discuss money. How do you think he’d react if next time he made a comment you said ‘you cannot have it all ways. If you don’t want to discuss our finances, then butt out of how I spend my money’? If he’d get angry, then I can’t fathom what’s keeping you in the marriage.

Is the 1500 mortgage up to date (only that you were talking about spreadsheet incoming and outgoings but said that 3years ago his wage was £4500). I deal with finances and not sure my DH knows current mortgage bill. Do you know all current bills? Conversely does he know how much food prices have risen? Council tax I believe is due to go up alot (circa 10% in some areas) , mortgages have increased a lot in some cases. I certainly agree with a pp who was saying he may be thinking he deals with essentials ( though food and cleaning materials and household insurance you pay for I think are essentials).Who pays the tax bills (eg on your rental property, was there a large bill for last tax year due at end of January?). I think you may have employers paying a decent amount into your pension scheme each year (I think the TPS is worth 23-24% of salary , well deserved).The latter to hopefully make you feel better. What car (and what job?) expects him to drive an expensive car (genuinely can't think of one where clients may not be potentially put off and think they are not at risk of being over charged).

Agree. This isn't a marriage in any sense of the word.

Your last post reads like you're the one always off with the kids, are you? If so, this is another way your marriage is unfair.

I still don’t see how you’re in a situation where he’s passing comment on every little spend if you have separate accounts?
Does he go through the statement??

No - if this isn’t clear twenty pages in, then I don’t see how it can be.

Let’s say we’re out and we need milk and I don’t have my purse or similar. Or if we’re watching TV and I say somewhere looks nice. Or if I say somebody’s son or daughter is doing a hobby. That’s when I get the grumbling and moaning.

Imsure - it sounds bloody miserable, and I wouldnt be able to put up with him

What do you do if he starts vapouring on about being on the verge of ruin?
Have you ever called his bluff on this when he starts - eg demanded to be fully informed so you can work with him to avert the impending catastrophe?
Or turned it round and critisized him - as hes got pretty much full control over the big spends any prospective 'ruin' must be due to his mismanagment of the situation - its not as though hes using the money to support you or his kids.

OP I’m not sure you can fix this unless you get to ultimatum time. However, if you are so unhappy you feel this is ruining your marriage and will head that way, I believe you owe your vowes a warning. You may not like the concept of counselling, but at least it demonstrates to your DH he’s doing damage. If he’s bothered about ‘fair’, or your spending or whatever it is, the ONLY solution is talking. If you want this sorted you have to engage. Surely your kids are worth the discomfort of having someone facilitate that process?

Exactly.

Gently, OP (and the others saying their husbands are like this),other people being in the same miserable situation as you doesn’t mean it’s okay.
I can only add to what other people have said: you’re being financially and emotionally abused.
Also gently, if you’ve never experienced specific financial counselling, you don’t know that the counsellors aren’t going to be very good. Is it worth trying?
To be honest, I would say not, because to me he sounds so unpleasant. But only you know whether you think it might be worth a try.
For what it’s worth, my DP and I have had some tension in the past about earnings. I know that it was him being worried (with some justification) about our financial situation, but sometimes he would snap and speak rudely and raise his voice to me, and after it happened a few times I told him calmly but firmly that it was not okay for him to speak to me like that and that we had to have these discussions, they were not personal and I was not prepared for them to turn into arguments or insults. I started a discussion in a neutral voice with a calm manner, and he reciprocated, and now we talk completely openly about finances.

I do appreciate that I’m probably “luckier” than you because my DP was not starting from such a difficult place as your DH seems to be; his issues about finances weren’t particularly deep rooted, at a guess, but were just about our situation at the time.

I don’t know if this sounds like a point that you think you and your DH could get to.

To answer your original question, how can you get through to him that children are expensive - you can't. He won't hear it and doesn't want to know.

Despite earning a huge amount, he has irrational fears of poverty and bankruptcy. This is not something you can solve.

Added to this, he nit-picks and criticises about your expenditure. There may be a combination of reasons for this grumpy nit-picking moaning:

Could it be he finds it an outlet for his stress, to emotionally 'dump' on you instead of handling his emotions like an adult.

Could it be he likes to be in control, and doesn't like that your spending is not in his control.

Could it be that he fundamentally disagrees with your spending patterns, that he is more comfortable living as if you were both poor, basically he is a miser.

Whatever the reasons, you can't fix him or change him.
So your choices are to divorce (ASAP for the sake of the children while they are too young to remember), or to find a way to live with it.

At present your strategy of simply not talking about money is a good one, in that it mostly works, except when you have an expensive month. So to fix that, make sure you have personal savings to fall back on in those expensive months, so that you never, ever have to ask him for money.
So cut back a bit on the spending, build up some emergency savings for yourself, and you can avoid those conversations completely.

A couple of things are very concerning:

First, why does he want you to reduce your hours at work and earn less? That doesn't make sense if he is worried about household finances. But it makes perfect sense if he just wants to control you and have you at home for his convenience.
Beware this relationship doesn't escalate into controlling abuse. Don't reduce your hours, as that will only further undermine your independence and future security.

Second, what is your long-term financial security looking like? Is your pension adequate? You mentioned that when you no longer have the cost of childcare you could put more into the mortgage: DON'T do this, you need to put the extra into savings and pension in your name only.
It is not fair for you to pay more into the household when your pension and savings are in a worse state than his. Financial fairness has to include the whole picture including the future, not just month-to-month costs. So don't pay more into the household without first having a big cards-on-the-table discussion about his financial situation and pension, and working out what is truly fair.

You're well off compared to some people. I don't know what his problem is.

Complete tightarse.

They are your (plural) children. You are both responsible for their care and development. Which includes them eating and having some activities.

In my opinion, if you are doing the majority of childcare, he's already in credit. That is hard work that if you werent around, he'd pay a fortune to employ or have to give up work and do it himself. In all likelihood, having children has curtailed your career and therefore earning potential, not his.

The childcare should be a joint expense. Can you both agree (maybe include a typical week/month of expenditure for them) an amount to spend monthly then both pay in for it? Otherwise I'd be telling him 50/50 looking after them and then spend or don't spend on them when you're in charge. Wonder how long he'd last entertaining 2 preschoolers 4 days a week for free?

OP I think he's gaslighting you about money.

A lunch once a week is normal on what you described as your salaries.

There have been several other working women with high/decent family income to outgoings that have been in the same situation.

The one where the H dictated how few supermarket polo shirts the son had has particularly stayed in my mind.

Once the nursery fees stop you can start on your mat leave debt then all the other school and club associated costs will be yours and you will be earning less having dropped your hours. Not to mention eye watering holiday clubs.

Meanwhile he'll reduce his pension contributions and have even more to himself.

It's easy to become a boiled frog.

I’ve recently downloaded this spreadsheet https://www.instagram.com/youngirishbudgeter?igsh=ano1aHpxdW5sendx
it’s been invaluable to log where my money goes. Because yes. DCs are expensive! I earn about the same as your husband and you combined and yet still live month to month. This has been eye opening. And really helpful!

I also have to do this, so that I don’t have to listen to judgements and comments about what money is spent on them! It’s ridiculous I agree. And sad. I understand completely.

This is a miserable way for you to live, OP. You’re working hard in an important job, looking after the kids, doing most of the life admin and doing the cleaning and cooking. You sound like you may actually be paying more proportionately than your DH is. You know you can afford your lifestyle but you are so constantly under attack that even a throwaway remark during a TV show is taken by him as a sign of your profligacy. This is not ok. You should be v angry with him.
It sounds as if he has a complete lack of appreciation for the things you do to give him the life he has.
Does he come from a family which knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing? Is this learned behaviour?
I ask this because my DH comes from a lovely farming family but everything was considered beyond the pale in terms of cost. My husband learned to think like this despite being a high earner. It drove me mad. I thought I might leave him because of it (pre marriage and pre kids) He had never experienced poverty but I had.
I told him what I thought about it and told him I could not live with the stinginess and it was up to him.
He still hates spending money but we have had a joint account from day one of the marriage and total transparency. I spend what I want to (I earn too). He never begrudges what I spend on the children and if he does complain about the expense of something I tell him “that’s what it costs”. He has plenty money and he’s not going to take it with him.
I simply refuse to give into it. I also manage all the money. Everything is so much better now and he’s actually a really generous person in many ways.
If I were you, I’d do two things. I go on holiday for a week or ten days on my own without the kids. Give him plenty of notice but tell him his constant carping about money is driving you mad and you need to get away and think things through. Leave him to do all the child care and all the household chores. Make sure you run down all the household supplies before you go.
It’s drastic but it is less drastic than separating which you are already thinking about. Plus he’ll be fine.
When you return, I would not rise to any of the money talk. Water off a duck’s back. Do not let anything he says change your behaviour of your spending. Just a breezy, “well you do it, then” to every complaint. And withdraw your labour in that department.
Ask him, “do you want me to be miserable? Because you are making me miserable and eroding my sense of self worth”. Don’t mention money. Just his behaviour. The constant put downs.
Either he will come to his senses and realise what a plonker he’s been. Or he will continue to do it and you’ll know it’s not about the money. It’s about the control. He’s just crushing your spirit. At that point you can make a decision about your future.
You have much more power in this relationship than you perhaps realise. You have an equal ability to call the shots.
He will have to explain to his children, his family your joint friends and his colleagues that you’ve left him because of his constant carping over the cost of a tub of Vanish. Good luck. I think you’ve got this.

How much would he say he needs to earn to be comfortable with you spending the money you are? If he can't put an exact figure on it, it sounds like it's just habit for him to complain about money being spent. And if he's going to be like this regardless of how much he earns or how much more you can put away in future, either he fixes it or you leave because it will last a lifetime.

Having said that my dad was like this and it turned out he had over £100k of debts he'd been keeping secret.

If you don’t have £40 for hairdresser at end of the month (or an overdraft to dip into), and you have to ask him then I can see why it would be a flag to OH, ditto him buying your shoes.

havings kids is meant to be fun for the family and if you want to take them to soft play or swim lessons that’s ok if you can afford it. Not want anyone else on here deems in their opinion as too much. Swimming is exercise and a life saving skill gets them off screens and potential social skills.

set up a joint account to pay all joint liabilities out of. You shouldn’t pay 50% as you earn less because you also look after the kids. This should include school clothes after school clubs and an agreed min social activities.

beyond that if you want to use your discretionary spend on more that’s your choice but really you do need a rainy day buffer- no borrowing £50 at month end. Aim for at least 3 mths salary in an access account.

Also sort out your pension- overpay as if you work f/t and that should be reflected in your net take home. Too many women (incl me) have poor pensions because childcare years impact earnings and contributions. Do it now. Good on you for continuing to work and keep your earning power and thus independence.

you talk about splitting up- is this the only reason because it should be fixable. If you do all this and he still complains then the dial is moving to controlling behaviour.

He’s a knob. He’s earning a large amount and even if he is paying the mortgage/bills he’s also paying into a pension presumably. And you are on reduced hours, saving him money on childcare and also paying for all the food, reduced contributions into your pension. Absolutely not.

Divorce him and either go 50:50- he’ll get a shock paying for nursery or if he doesn’t want 50:50 he’ll pay you maintenance. Can you imagine the next 40 years with a fun sponge that gets annoyed if you buy an ice cream or on an outing. Just no.