FL thread 2

[mortil2]

To follow on so to not lose what is such an interesting thread

MaryLennox84 - I agree that different products work for different people. I cant use lush shampoo bars because they give me really bad dandruff.

Again the problem I have is the way they are advertised, the business model and the promises. Why was the FL lady on my FB trying to recruit claiming you really do earn good money when she has only just started it? how does she know so soon? its that sort of promise I cannot tolerate and through further research via FB feeds, hastags, twitter and various websites as well as the company's own page I'm still dubious.

Plus I think the con is that some reps are promised loads when they sign up and the reality of it is glossed over. They are also left to manage alone without much in the way of training from their recruiter.

I'm pretty good at curating my feeds to minimise the number of adverts I see (advertising really isn't good for the soul especially the really bad stuff I'm getting) I've had to hide the FL lady because she is already pumping out stuff several times a day. Just host a good party, don't ram it down my face daily you are making my private online space uncomfortable.

Why aren't the independent distributors scrutinised enough for their miss-selling? Most of it is said through conversation not actually written down or printed but there is enough on facebook pages for the main company to do something about it. Do you they really care, the main company, that their products are being miss-sold?

I know you wont have the answers to these because you don't own the company and I don't expect you to answer them. These are just the concerns I have and I only came to start researching this after I was approached to sign up.

Being told it (aloe) would cure my IBS (chronic, long term) that is can cure my psoriasis (autoimmune, incurable) and bee pollen would solve all my asthma problems (mine is triggered by dust mites so unless bee pollen vaporises dust mite allergens its not) that's what set alarm bells ringing for me and yes I shall be making a complaint through the correct channels once I have gathered enough evidence because something said wont cut it :(

I get that you clearly are a decent person and you do this business as ethically as you can. Others really aren't as considerate of others or follow the contract signed as closely as you have/are.

Bromley--what qualifies anyone to work at Holland and Barrett or Boots or Bath and Body Shop, in the nicest possible way?

Last-You're actually not allowed to "pimp those products on Amazon" and Forever is taking action to have them taken down. Well, you haven't shown me your paystub, less expenses in a big 24pt Arial Bold, so I don't actually believe you have a job or make money.

I don't have average earnings as Forever DOES NOT CLAIM THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO MAKE A BUTTLOAD OF MONEY. Naturally, with most things, it is about what you put in it. You aren't going to get a lot if you don't put a lot in. Likely, most people don't make much as they don't know how to sell or they don't put in much effort. Then there is a small minority who makes a killing. But you know, they've probably all lied.

What happens if some1 doesnt earn the 4cc every month, do they not get paid, or do they get told they need more training?

I also passed a screen shot on to a friend who is what I consider and expert in horse care and animals (decades in the industry in various forms) and even she confirmed many of the claims ( and I did go through more with her and she found some herself, thats kinda how we work!) was shocked those claims could be made and she has never used aloe on her animals.

Some home made treatments yes, we all have (tea tree, lavendar, chammomile for eg) but the claims that some of the distributors made about curing ailments for animals that require urgent veterinary care left her not only angry but disgusted it was being allowed by a big company especially as she put it 'most of those can be prevented with good horse/animal maintenance and don't need these products to keep at bay'

Betty--I think that's the rub as some people are desperate and will claim anything. It's like my friend who claims that I can cure my incurable illness by following the paleo diet and paying him to do my meal plans. Sure, he has a degree, but he also doesn't know jack crap about autoimmune disorders or how dangerous those claims are. Like I said, that is a huge sticking point with me, so I would NEVER tell someone it is a cure. Can it help ease some symptoms? Yeah. Have some of the FL products helped with my lupus symptoms? Yeah. Is it curative? Absolutely not. Like I said, there are some products they make I really, really like and others I'm not too keen on. But even with Soap & Glory, etc., that's the case. My aunt has found the shampoo works really well with her dermatitis and my mom has found the soap helps stop the itching on her hands. But is any of this curative? Absolutely not. Like I said, it does help my dog's itching as well, but I can only tell you it's helped him. I can't say every dog with sensitive skin is going to benefit from it. I can only tell you what has helped me, if that makes sense.

My BF and I are very honest people and that's part of the problem we've had with recruiting. We haven't made a killing or quit our jobs to work for FL (which is not my intention, I think my bf since he wants to go back to uni as a mature student would love to have it as a side job whilst he goes to uni but no one is banking on that). We personally know people who have (even though apparently they are lying), but like I said, I know they work incredibly hard on it which we do not. They may have more personalities towards sales. Someone like Jordan Balfort would be amazing at this job because he can sell snow to an Eskimo. I'm just not that type of person.

As far as the policing and mis-selling, honestly, I don't know and I know you said you didn't expect me to know, I'm just saying that since I don't work for head office I can't tell you. I also haven't met a ton of people who do Forever Living, so I can't rightfully tell you what's gone on in that regard. I have heard about it, but never seen it.

Like I said, I honestly have no problem with most MLMs if people are honest. I actually use a few Avon products myself and tried to order from a local distributor, but it got weird.

As I said, with ANY MLM, you are going to have people struggling and some people lying and some people making a killing. But isn't that the case with most business? I think it just has to do with the propensity some people have for business.

Annie, we have never sold 4cc a month and we still got paid. I think it means you don't get the royalties from your downline. But at some point that stops, but I can't tell you where.

As far as the claims of pets, that is ridiculous and horrible that people are making these claims. I have used the aloe on my dog's skin (he suffers from irritation) and he likes it and finds it soothing the vet has said it is okay. However, it isn't the only thing I use on him. He also takes prescribed medicine, takes frequent baths (in Forever products, though) to ensure he is getting bacteria off and is on a special diet. People should be peddling the products in COMBINATION, not as a cure. Because they work in combination!

ooh look what I found:

(saved - can't upload cos I've reached my limit)

www.foreverliving.com/marketing/Page.do;jsessionid=2E9B24A978035B4416A2EDEAE17F53FE.tc5-web1?name=opportunity

A quote from Rex Maughan himselffff!

''I never get tired of having people put their arms around me and say ‘thanks for making me a millionaire’, that, plus hearing people’s personal testimonies of miraculous health turnarounds thanks to the products, makes it all worthwhile.''
Rex Maughan
Chairman of the Board,
Chief Executive Officer

Boom.

the main company doesn't support these claims MY ARSE

Hi Mary, just to address some of what U've stated:

1. If u had no evidence of any fl'r being terminated or known of any person, was this something u merely heard about & if so why argue the point so strongly without evidence?

2)"they claim you'll make a lot of money with no contrary" On the contrary, I think the general opinion here has been that fl members are required to put in disproportionately huge amounts of effort, time & resources, for little benefit or dividends. Unfortunately, FL is quite misleading about that & promotes itself as an ideal opportunity for working mums wishing to stay @ home & have more time for children.

Not every Fl member can be an idiot surely & yet vast majority do make spurious claims about fl products' health benefits, as does FL, itself. Evidence of that has already been referred to. Clearly, despite what it says in the policy, there is a rampant & unchecked culture of making unbased claims about health benefits & remedies.

I don't doubt that you saw the lady in your upline receive a cheque for $30,000, but I think the point that has been made exhaustively, is that when u do the sums, how much money, time & expenses have been invested/incurred in relation to that cheque? In other words, what's the actual profit??

I also don't doubt that after using FL products, u've felt a boost in your energy levels. Not going to suggest its a placebo effect, as I'm sure aloe Vera, like any other supplementation has some benefits to the body, but I am interested to know what other comparable products have u compared Fl products with. There are cheaper & yet organic, paraben free, more potent product in the open market. Have u tried any of those?

Mary, also u say "Many people I know messaged me to tell me they have used them in the past but their distributor quit and were glad I was distributing so they could buy off of me". That would suggest what Lastuser pointed to, in that it's incredibly difficult to locate website that facilitates direct purchase from FL & clearly your own customers weren't aware of this, otherwise they wouldn't have needed to wait for another distributer to save the day & sell to them.

MaryLennox84 - does that not worry you? that you have been so honest when trying to recruit that you've struggled. Does that mean you'd have to bend the truth/lie to get recruits?

I think if the market wasn't already saturated, the products no so highly priced, you'd probably do ok - filling a market need and all that. But the business is clearly set to fail, in a fashion, because the market is saturated, they are over priced, easy to get cheaper alternatives and they clearly (from my own experience) push to recruit many people rather than foster a good core group of consumers. That's how you do a standard business. Get a core group then expand. You(they) are being told to expand before building the foundations. Creating more competition for yourself limiting your opportunities to make sales.

Lily,

In some of the these topics, I can't win as you've already made up your mind. If I said I had known someone who was terminated, I would be asked to provide proof. If I provided proof, I would be told it was somehow a lie. The only proof I have is that we sign a contract that states it is grounds for termination. That's all I can tell you. I don't know what other proof you want.

I'm not sure that is true about the money and time. Nothing is required and I have never been pressured to purchase anything extra nor have I been pressured to go to trainings. A lot of the training is online and free...so people who are paying a lot of money are doing so out of their own free will. The person I know who received that cheque just also bought a HUGE house. Of course she put in a lot of time and effort, I don't know why you guys are expecting someone to just snap their fingers and get it. Nothing comes for free (timewise). Many people who make that kind of money not in MLMs invest a lot of time and perhaps even their own money, but they wouldn't be so heavily criticised for it. I wouldn't say she's in the majority, but she does exist.

In my opinion, it is not difficult to locate the website and the products. I was able to do so in like 10 seconds and I'm sure they could too, but the reason why you go through a distributor is because you are offered discounts, etc. (which is what we do for customers). Many of them were also close friends who I think just wanted to support us AND had used the products before. If you google "Forever Living Official Website" it is the first thing that comes up. There is a BIG "SHOP NOW" at the top. I'm not sure what else you want when it comes to ease of shopping? I'm even seeing a graphic that says "SHOP NOW."

Betty- Well there may not be a viability for us. For some people it is sustainable, we just may not be the people to sustain it for ourselves. I don't have the answer.

But in all honesty, nothing I ever say is going to be enough. No proof, even contracts, that I provide is going to be enough. You guys have "exhaustively proven" (through non-official marketing material, Facebook posts and messages from other message boards) that it is a con, despite hard evidence to the contrary. But that is your prerogative. I'm not going to sit here and attempt to prove any more to people who have already made up their minds. At this point, there isn't really much else I can say.

I don't buy into this, 'it's just a few bad apples' crap 'a few idiots'. The blame for the endemic culture being practiced by fl bots, lies squarely @ the feet of FL. Isn't it FL that trains its members? Only an idiot refuses to see that.

Mary, I appreciate u taking the time to answer our questions, but I think on this we'll have to agree to disagree. If it was a profitable venture for majority of ppl, the retention rate wouldn't be so low. At some point reality has to prevail! It's clear that the model isn't designed to be sustainable for vast majority, so it's not simply down to 'it's not for everyone'. The odds are stacked from the get-go.

I guess that it's hard to admit when you have been sold a pup (or a PUPP - ha), and so you have to keep defending yourself.

Forever Living is a pyramid scam, based on a very few people amounting huge wealth through millions of people's naivety and belief that they too can have a lottery winner's lifestyle. That it has products and therefore finds a loophole in the illegal pyramid selling scheme is neither here nor there. The products are over-priced, badly packaged, and their virtues over-sold.

The lifestyle pushed by these people is incredible. All FLbot FB pages appear to be open. The 80/20 rule is evident - lots of nice glossy photos of holidays, flash cars and then the odd champagne work event, oh and ridiculously large cheques feature heavily, with comments such as, "I'll PM you xx...." if anyone asks anything about it. It's all so....cynical.

Ugh.

This is from the UK's #1:

"My best advice is to work your warm list i.e. people that you know first to build your confidence in your network.
Contact marketing is simply making friends wherever you go.
Always look presentable so you represent a business owner.
Smile.
Pay someone a compliment as people like to feel good about themselves and this breaks the ice. Ask them questions about themselves as people love to talk about themselves and LISTEN
In a shop - 'you gave me such great service you must be paid a fortune to work here...'
I often approach mums and say 'you're little one is just so cute. Wait for response .... I don't know if you can help me but I help mums work from home you don't know just one person that might be interested?
Use some of Big Als icebreakers (this is a fabulous book) 'you know how ....... people are looking to work from home/ use skincare without chemicals / reduce their household bills/ work 3 weeks of the month but get paid for 4 .... well thats what I help people to do'
I always say 'obviously its not easy to talk now but are you happy for me to send you some information?
Then get your phone out and say are you on facebook?
Open up the app and ask them to add themselves from your account - screenshot the profile so it goes into your photos so you remember to follow up and then send them your company information.
Or lets exchange details (exchange is a great word as it means you are sharing information) and hand them your card and ask them to add their contact details into a notebook (which you should always carry around or the notes in your phone)
The most important thing is to have fun - you have a gift to help them - the gift is your business opportunity - its up to them whether they open the gift and get started.
Like everything the more you do it the easier it becomes.
Just remember make friends wherever you go and always add them to your social media platforms as they may not be interested right now but it doesn't mean they won't be forever and they will be following you - I promise!!
Hope thats helped,
Nat x"

Nice. I must warn my friend not to be suckered in by any of her compliments.

"Likely, most people don't make much as they don't know how to sell or they don't put in much effort"- Wow, u really have necked the koolaid havn't u?
That's exactly the kind of mindset accepted & swallowed by 'failed' bots, who believe they were inadequate in some way, despite leaving their kids with whoever, to organise parties, promote fl, attend events, meetings etc, who gave it their absolute all to 'make the business work'. Ppl that spent their money on travel, in some cases venues/stalls, childcare, fl products etc & sucked up all the training they could...but despit all this BECAUSE mlm's like FL are essentially a mug's game, they didn't 'make it work for themselves', but sure as hell made it work for the founders & top players.

Um, okay? Hard to admit what? That I actually like the products? I guess I must be lying to you guys because I can't admit it to myself.

I am just pondering what my FLBot or the poor soul trying to recruit me would suggest I use to "cure" my genital heart defect? If it can put arthritis in remission (not sure I have ever heard that one before), assist in curing cancer and solve the worlds eczema problems - surely the FDA and MHRA need to get their hands on this formula there must be a cure for heart disease and defects or is that just wishful thinking hmm

Sorry if this has been mentioned but who if anyone regulates these companies? and more to the point what can we as individuals do to get the regulators if there are any to investigate, these false claims can seriously put peoples health at risk!!

Oh to end FLBots status tonight (from her holiday in Cyprus)

"Love how I can still work my business from the sun lounger poolside !!
Will be putting in forever orders this evening smile emoticon pm me by 8pm ( as that's 10pm ) here"

I am damn sure my husband and kids would be most pi**ed with me if I went on holiday and spent it advertising my wares on facebook!

& I apologise to everyone, but if there's 1 thing that gets me angry, it's the view that ppl's failure in these things are solely their doing. It's messed up & condescending to blame ppl, that are often in a vulnerable position & get lured by trained/professional merchants of false hope, then subsequently lead down a path of financial loss (sometimes social & personal too). Not only does their finances get exploited, but I'd imagine their self esteem takes a kicking too, with this retarded "oh well u just weren't "-" enough. Rubbish! 95% can't be all inadequate & if they are it says a lot for the FL training!

Bromley I read that No#1 post & I swear I vomited a little in my mouth
"I often approach mums and say 'you're little one is just so cute. Wait for response .... I don't know if you can help me but I help mums work from home you don't know..." Eeuurrghh How can anyone pride themselves on making a living out of being soo damn pretentious & weasley....the mind boggles!

It's a business model designed to fail for 96% of people investing in the company.

Juice Plus script from a MLM thread in AIBU at the moment

www.teamrhinotv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/TIPS-AND-SCRIPTS-dec.pdf

MaryLennox84 - Again, thx for your replies. You wrote:

"'Your upline is clearly lying to you!' (So the woman in my upline who received $30,000 at the last conference is lying when I saw her check? The people I know who were working 50+ hours a week who then quit their job to do Forever and don't speak to their parents are lying? Where is the money coming from then? Outer space?) "

Your upline is either telling the truth, lying, or fooling themselves. I would hazard a mixture of the latter 2. The money is not coming from "outer space", its coming from profits generated by FL members buying overpriced aloe gel for personal use and from the huge profits generated from the tools scam, especially the profits made from the success days: each O2 fill @ £30 per head must generate £400k+ gross profit? And then there's all the books and CDs sold there as well.

That's why we asked for an audited profit-and-loss account from the upline business. I don't suppose you could post that but I'd ask to see it before I joined.

anyway, thx again!

mary you're rather defensive about FL for someone who claims to have only made £100 so far - are you sure you're not from FLHQ? You've made a number of claims such as 'bad apples' are terminated but can provide no proof. You mentioned, with quite some authority too, that UK distributors must be charged as a matter of law, but again can provide no basis for this. Good luck to you.

talcum [shocked]