Fathers 4 Justice

[dolallylass]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it galling that these fathers are scaling building and yet some dads can not get out of their commitment to their kids quick enough??

Where is Mothers 4 Justice crusading for more contact??

I am so sick of doing it all and having to take what my xh can offer graciously (well as graciously as I can muster!!) and then listening to how fathers need more rights. I know there are some fantastic fathers (my neighbour is one) but there are many fathers who leave, drop responsibility and then try and ask for gratitude for the little they do!!

Seriously is there a Mothers 4 Justice or are we all too bl**dy busy??

lostdad-im sorry if i offended you making that comment about court.having experienced things from the other side-ie being forced to let a violent,abusive man see the children when one of them didnt want to,i always assumed that there had to be strong evidence that the NRP had actually abused the child in some way for a court to deny contact.

Not offended at all, Divastrop.

Parents who abuse their children should not be allowed to have contact - I don't think we'll disgree on that one!

What is almost as bad as being denied contact is the thought that people take it as read that I have abused him...it's taken as read and because the court has to err on the side of caution. Which I understand.

Then again...how I prove I didn't do something? Personally, if I was given the option to stand in a criminal trial for what I have been accused of it, I would leap at the chance.

What hurts most is that my son is ultimate loser here. I am big enough and ugly enough to look after myself; He isn't - and I see that as my job.

There are masses more mothers lying through their teeth about abusive men in this country and denying men contact than there are abusive fathers who hurt their children. Also women who deny non abusive men contact are abusers themselves. Children need to see both parents.

The saving grace is that children grow up and take their own decision. I know one man who didn't divorce until his youngest was 13 because he knew the children would choose him and they did. Had he done it 2 years earlier the courts would have given the children to the mother. Orher men don't divorce at all because they won't risk losing the children. I'e even had dinner with two men (and it's not as if I see masses of men) both of whom were wrongly accused of child abuse by their wives, one just had a bath with the child for goodness sake and then denied the right to see the child for the next 12 months etc.

If it were 50% of time with each parent where both work unless there is a good reason not to then that would be a much fairer starting point.

Lostdad, my kids accused my X. I would only listen to kids.

That's definitely something that needs to take into consideration, Glitterfairy...my son was 3 months old when my ex took him away.

I am not sure where you get any of your ideas or even figures from Xenia but you are making comments which cannot be backed up.

Lostdad that is appalling. As I said my youngest choose to see her father despite everything and I support that regardless as it really is her choice. She acknowledges that he has hurt her but forgives him and they have wonderful days together at times. She is still a little scared of him but loves him and wants to work things through herself and I allow her that right.

As I said regardless of anything in my eyes it should be the kids who are listened to and their rights not the parents which are taken into account.

I really too tired to argue...
but I just wanted to agree with Xenia, well said.

xenia-there are also lots of abusive men who lie through their teeth and say they were wonderful,loving fathers and that their x's are vindicitive bitches who accuse them of allsorts just to stop them seeing their children.

in fact,every man ive ever met who's not been allowed contact with his dc has claimed the ex is a cow etc etc.xh was one of them,he often went on about how hard done by he was that he hadnt seen his son since he was 18 months old because his ex had told lies about him,and i stupidly believed him untill he nearly threw ds2 into the moses basket when he was 8 weeks old(luckily i grabbed him in time).

this is why i tend to believe there are reasons why men arent allowed contact.of course in a minority of cases the lack of contact is a sad injustice,but i believe that most of the time it is in the child's best interest.

...oh come on Divastrop.

Let me turn your phrase around:

`in fact,every woman ive ever met who's blocked contact with her dc has claimed the ex is a b***d etc etc.xw was one of them, she often went on about how controlling he was and had't allowed him to see his son since he was 18 months old because his ex had told lies about her'.

I always though men were as bad as women and vice versa. GENDER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A GOOD OR BAD PARENT.

Why do I have to prove I am a good parent? Guilty until proven innocent because I am a father and by the laws of average not part of the `minority' of cases you mention?

hmm, I tend to agree with divastrop, having seen how quick my ex is to claim that I am one of these famous bitches who denies him access to teh children.
And how easily other people, men and women, believe what he says.

"There are masses more mothers lying through their teeth about abusive men in this country and denying men contact than there are abusive fathers who hurt their children."

Hmmm, I'd hazard a guess that is more speculation than fact.

In my own experience. In my own research I am certain that is a fact.
I also believe many more mothers want fathers to have more contact and help with children than fathers are denied contact too by the way but that issue doesn't get much publicity.

Every weekend in about 1 in 5 contact cases I would hazard a guess a mother is giving in to a child who can't be bothered to go or is rendering that child hostile to the father or is simply refusing to let him see it. Massive issue which is why we need the law change of 50/50- time with each parent and mothers jailed if they deny contact.

Silverfrog my xp was aggressive to me and he does see the children (infrequently, his choice, although he blames me )

If I were going to cut him out of our lives though, it would not be because of spite and bitterness as you say, it would be because it is incredible difficult to deal with a person who has treated you like a tinker's dog for years. Do you understand how hard it is to stay 'together' and to feel sane, when you HAVE to let somebody who has dragged you by your hair to the floor? Do you think that it would be simply spite and bitterness that would make a woman decide to have to cut a man like that out?!

I said this on another thread already tonight, but although children need fathers, yes, first and foremost they need a strong, happy, focused sane mother, who has the emotional resources to chanel in to being a good mother.

If I saw more of my xp, I would be a bigger wreck than I am. Knowing he's with my children is extremely distressing.

Who are these mothers who lie about being abused? I kept it quiet for years because I was so ashamed.

I agree with xenia. While I do believe there are loads of women who deny their children contact with their absent fathers, in the majority of cases where the dads are NRP, they don't have nearly as much contact with their kids as their mothers would like.

Oh imagine my surprise, Xenia talking unsubstantiated bollocks.

Nobody neutral and respectable has done a survey on how many women deny contact, how many men simply refuse to turn up for contact, how many men withhold maintenance or play games with it, etc.., so until someone does, all these assertions will be merely that: assertions.

It is utterly ridiculous to claim that children need fathers who have been abusive to mothers and who have not taken responsibility for that abuse and expressed real genuine remorse and changed their behaviour. (There are some who do, but they are few and far between.) Children's role models are their parents. If a man has regularly punched and kicked their mother, or even just been continually disrespectful and dismissive, children are learning to expect that behaviour themselves. Little boys are learning to disrespect women, little girls are learning to be doormats. I wish we could recognise emotional and/ or psychological abuse as easily as the physical type, because it's just as serious and the effects are just as long-lasting. F4J have succeeded in ensuring that these issues are simply not debated, and I agree with Dittany, they have also succeeding in making FNF look reasonable to those not paying attention.

Oh but Xenia's all in favour of jailing fathers who don't turn up for contact visits as well Dittany, so she's not mysogyinst.

Just bonkers.

Hi everybody! Agree with litlebella. There are some fathers who cannot be models to their children becuase of theis behaviour. A disrespectful and dismissive father, selfish and destructive, who only wants his rights and ignot«re the childrens needs must be put in their places. A child doesnt need a father who goes on regular expensive vacantion mas doesnt pay for his children education, does she?

i said xh was one of those men who lied about his so-called bitch of an ex.living in a small town which has a high incidence of DV ,drug/alcohol abuse and all the other things that are rife in areas like this i have met many men who all tell the same story.often they blame their drug use on the fact they are depressed about not seeing their child/ren.more like the other way around

i dont think any NRP has to prove they are a good enough parent before being allowed contact.unless the family laws have changed very dramatically in the past 5 years,i was under the impression that the RP has to prove the NRP is not a good enough parent for whatever reason before they can be denied contact.

To clarify, I meant I agreed with xenia's post of 22:16, not that anyone should be jailed for denying contact, nor that there are a lot of women who deny contact for very good reasons. This article was linked to on the thread about the man who murdered his children yesterday in Wales - very interesting I thought.

at bonkers

As i have said jailing people is completely unworkable, will cost too much and we haven't room in prison in any case. It is also cruel to children.

I dont believe children first and foremost need a good mother, they first and foremost need at least one sane, stable and happy parent.

Personally I think it is often the mum because statistically mothers still do much of the caring but i dont see why that has to be the case always and I have known fathers who saw the light following a divorce and have really changed their ways.

I remain adamant though that many decisions should be taken by the children themselves and much younger than 10 Xenia. They are not involved enough in tbe whole nasty process and too often are sidelined.

I would like to see a better family court system and a less adversarial one at that.

My xp hates me far more than he loves his children. That is very frightening. I know he does sort of love them in his own bitter fcuked up way, but hating me is a bigger driving force for him. Every time I read things like that guy who jumped of a balcony in Greece with his two children, killing his son, I shudder. That resonates with me.

i realise i sound like im man-bashing in alot of my posts,i dont mean it to be that way.i am aware there are abusive women out there.i am just speaking of my own personal experiences and of people i have met.

xenia isnt bonkers.she is either a)a fictional character created by MNHQ to liven up debates or b)an alien.

Greenelizabeth, I'm not sure why you posted the following to me?

"Silverfrog my xp was aggressive to me and he does see the children (infrequently, his choice, although he blames me )

If I were going to cut him out of our lives though, it would not be because of spite and bitterness as you say, it would be because it is incredible difficult to deal with a person who has treated you like a tinker's dog for years. Do you understand how hard it is to stay 'together' and to feel sane, when you HAVE to let somebody who has dragged you by your hair to the floor? Do you think that it would be simply spite and bitterness that would make a woman decide to have to cut a man like that out?!"

I very clearly stated that I think if an ex-partner has been abusive they should not have automatic rights of access to children. I then went on to say that unfortunately, in our case, it has been spite and bitterness that has kept dh away from his children. In order to attempt to validate her actions, dh's ex came very close to accusations of mistreatment and abuse on our part towards dh's children. She certainly hinted at it, and not very subtly either.

I would also be very wary of glitterfairy's view that the opinions of the children should be sought beause they can be, in the cases which are motivated by spite and bitterness (which, as I have already said, are not all cases) manipulated horribly. My stepchildren ended up saying that they thought that sharing the holidays equally was a good idea, and then went on to say that 2 weeks for dh (in total, over the year) was a "fair deal", and that "it wouldn't be nice for mummy to have any less time with us". Very balanced view there then, from two children (aged 12 and 10 at the time) who absolutely adore their father, and were, at the time regularly phoning and emailing to ask when they could next see him...

silverfrog, manipulation of kids is an interesting point and was made all the time by my X.

It is usually fairly easy to uncover though as the kids guardian and solicitor said in court. An experienced cafcass officer will know that kids who are being coached will say what they need to all at once because they remember it like a list.

I also think it is an excuse often used by the desperate. If someone spends enough time with the kids, getting to know them and listening to them then the truth will out.