Fathers 4 Justice

[dolallylass]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it galling that these fathers are scaling building and yet some dads can not get out of their commitment to their kids quick enough??

Where is Mothers 4 Justice crusading for more contact??

I am so sick of doing it all and having to take what my xh can offer graciously (well as graciously as I can muster!!) and then listening to how fathers need more rights. I know there are some fantastic fathers (my neighbour is one) but there are many fathers who leave, drop responsibility and then try and ask for gratitude for the little they do!!

Seriously is there a Mothers 4 Justice or are we all too bl**dy busy??

"Children should be forced against their wishes to do all sorts of things" Xenia, are you for real? That is the maddest statement I have ever heard a parent make!

I have seen some fathers complain child lives with me, child does not want to see mum or stay overnight with her. On dads forums there isnt a love fest supporting such decisions. Dads forums give more tough advice which usually runs along lines like these...
"a young child is too young to be making such choices themselves. That decision is an adult one.

If a young child doesn't like something and a parent insists anyway, sooner or later the child will relents and eventually learn that what parents generally say, is the rule.

On such an important issue of a child seeing or spending time with the other parent, then this is clearly a case of the adult needing to be responsible and make the decision and stop looking to the child to make it.

Yes, you must force the child, yes they may cry at first, and yes, once out of your sight and control, they will transition perfectly ok."

Once more yerblurt we disagree.

Children who are refusing to do something usually have a reason. That reason may be to do with the resident parent but it needs to be worked out together.

You act as though kids are bad and evil. No, children are good and innately wise. If we continually treat them as though they have no control over situations where they are hurting what on earth will that make them as adults. By treating children as though they are inferior we show them how to behave as adults and therefore how badly adults behave.

I'm sorry, but on what planet is it ok tomake children stay with an abusive parent?

How can anyone who claims to have childrens' welfare at heart ignore or condone this, or even say it's the right thing to do?

Good god.

Where is anyone saying that, Janos?

Some children will refuse to go to non res parent for the fear of upsetting the res parent. In the majority of cases the children have a need and a right to spend time with the non res parent

Why do these discussions always come down to making out all absent fathers are abusers? The majority are not. Many, many women hold their kids to ransom or keep them away through pure spite. Where are the women berating these women??? They should be held in the same contempt as abusive fathers

Janos-I don't think anyone is condoning the making of a child have contact when there is a genuine reason why it is not in their interests ie, in Glitterfairy's case where the parent is abusive to the child. When there is no genuine reason-ie where the father or mother is good for the child-but a child of say three or four says they don't want to go-the situation is different. Often it may be because there has been a break in contact and the child is anxious about restarting the contact or where the resident parent has their own feelings about the absent parent which are transmitted to the child. In those situations surely for their longer term benefit they should be robustly encoraged to have a relationship with the absent parent

minorityrules: amen.

It doesn't matter if the abusive parent is male or female. What matters is that it abuse should be stopped.

Well said lostdad

I was referring to the yerblurt and glitterfairy's posts, lostdad. That was my reading.

"Many, many women hold their kids to ransom or keep them away through pure spite. Where are the women berating these women??? They should be held in the same contempt as abusive fathers"

Yes, I agree that is contemptuous behaviour. I would be interested to see how widespread this problem is.

"It doesn't matter if the abusive parent is male or female. What matters is that it abuse should be stopped."

I think that is something everyone in their right mind will agree on.

There is often a very sad element to all of this and I for one wouldn't hold anyone as contemptuous.

My X had a poor childhood and bad role models and parents who made his life hell. Many women and men have been abused and turn abuser. That is not to let them off but really I wouldnt hold them in contempt.

Many people who transmit their problems on to their children need help with grief and grieving and we are poor in this country at supporting couples through divorce and separation in a positive way.

Understanding is often a step towards sorting out a problem and some of this involves a massive amount of human emotion. I do not condone bad behaviour but I think we should not pour scorn on people whoever they are.

It is a really important point. Assume father is not abusive. Surely then if the 2 - 10 year old doesn't want to see the father the mother should make it? Isn't this the core reason so many fathers don't get to see their children because the mothers think fine to force a child to go to bed or go to school but not fine to let it see its father?

yes Xenia it is often exactly as you describe

The moral of the story is that the mother and father should, as far as their children are concerned, do the same thing whether they have seperated or are together:

Work together for the child's benefit.

When you're seperated it is harder for all the obvious reasons. Then again - most of us would do anything to make sure our children get the childhood that every one deserves.

From a selfish point of view - with my son being used as a stick to beat me by my ex, by him being the only thing that leaves me with any cause to have contact with her - the easiest thing for me would be for me to walk away, forget my son and start a new life, with a new family.

And no - I don't expect thanks' or being told what a good boy' I am for meeting my obligations as a father: It is my job. mine. No one else's - not even my ex's new boyfriend.

I grew up with a father who was involved in my childhood; my ex didn't. I therefore see fathers are important; she doesn't.

Guess which kind of role model I want my son to have?

But it is all about my son. Not about my ex and not about me. Her behaviour makes me even more coninced that he should have at least one parent who puts him first, as well as stupid `gender politics'.

i'm sorry but i dont think forcing a child to spend time with somebody they dont want to is right.i have never forced my children to go to bed or to school.if one of them didnt want to go to school i would be trying my best to find out why before sending them in!

i made my dd1 see her father lots of times when she didnt want to.i didnt want him to have contact with the dc because he had been violent and abusive to me,but of course as he had never hurt the children i had to let him see them,even though i knew full well he only wanted to see them so he could keep some control over me(i had to tell him about/introduce him to any new boyfriend i had so he could assess whether they were suitable to be around his children).when he met my dh he decided it was more important to try and beat the shit out of him than it was to take his kids out.they then saw him for what he was and have refused to see him since.

i grew up without a father,and i know myself how important it is for a child to have a dad.but i also know its better to have no dad than an abusive one.

and i think if a court has decided a man shouldnt have contact with his children,then there must be a very good reason for it.

The justice is when a mother goes to court following a divorce, she will probably get residency and the discretion to cancel contact just beacuse she wants to be awkward.

I understand the point here but Fathers in general get a very raw deal generally - too many Woman think it right that its 'their' child when it comes to maintenance payments but as soon as it comes to contact and/or anything else, automatically Mum has the overall decision and Dad has to like or lump a day a week with their child.

Good on all those Mums coping (and well I might add!) without the input of Dad.

`and i think if a court has decided a man shouldnt have contact with his children,then there must be a very good reason for it.'

...in the same way that if Tony Blair said there were WMD in Iraq and we needed to start a war then there must have been a very good reason for it?

You not really saying that the court get it right 100% of the time are you???

lost dad

Sorry are you replying to my message - I didnt say if the court said. I agree with you, if the court say 'based on the facts, dad will not have contact' then dad should not have contact.

What I'm saying is, my husband has been fighting for two years to see his daughter regularly, he's had to jump every obstacle, contact centres, cafcass and only this month has been told that the problems that were bought to the courts attention were 'difficulties with mum dealing with the divorce and not reasons for him not to continue with contact' and he now has overnight contact with his daughter weekly.

I know this is an emotive issue, but there do seem to be a lot of assumptions and jumping to conclusions happening on this thread.

I think that everyone is in agreement that if a non resident parent is/has/been abusive then children should be kept away.

But, there seems to be a lot of people thinking that it is ok for children to just not see the non resident parent, with no particular reason for this.

I agree with minorityrules - it should ot be allowed AT ALL to keep children away from a parent due to spite/bitterness. And it does happen. a lot.

my dh has had to battle for years to see his children, and even now, despite having a good contact agreement in place, his ex messes around, won't discuss when we can have the children for holidays, etc, and tries to arrange loads of activities during his time with the children.

oh, and just to add - during the last court case, when we were fighting yet again for dh to be able to see his children, it was strongly hinted that there were good reasons for his ex to be witholding contact. there were vague accusations against both dh & I ("the children have very good reasons for not wanting to see their dad"; "the children have specifically requested not to be left alone with silverfrog. They are particularly uncomfortable with this. They are never to be in the house alone with her") which were aload of nonsense and completely unsubstantiated, but dh's ex was never asked to explain her comments, or told to stop making up false accusations. (the children, btw, had no knowledge of saying these things when asked by a (neutral, well-known and trusted) relative)

There hs never been a reason for dh to not see his children, and he has always wanted to be involved with them. Yet there have been extended periods of little contact, and numerous instances of him mssing important dates through not being told, or being left out of important decisions (eg choosing schools). It is all to easy for a resident parent to freeze out a non resident parent if they so wish, and that, imo, is something that should be changed.

i do think that sometimes people who haven't suffered cruelty physical and mental violence within relationships tend to be more forgiving regarding access to children given those circumstances. My ex never laid a finger on me, wasn't abusive at all, was a lazy bugger on occasion, but generally a good dad. then he left us and started drinking heavily. he's now awaiting a court date for an incidence of domestic violence agains this current girlfriend, although she will probably take him back (again...) and he has alleged that she broke his ribs and knocked a tooth out. There are no catalogued incidence of violence against my children, but I'm very reluctant to let them anywhere near him (or his new partner) without me being there. If that makes me vindictive or awkward then, fine. My job is to protect my children. When their father has been drinking he is unpredictable and occasionally violent. I'm not putting my children in that situation.

families may, or may not, need fathers. I'm certainly not going to force my children to see their dad given the current circumstances. I also know that he will wheedle and cajol and try and make me let him have them at his house.

I'm not saying that all fathers are like him, by no stretch of the imagination - but also single mothers are gebnerally not in my experience, vindictive cows using the kids to get back at their exes. that may happen, buit then everyones life experience is different.

Single mothers generally are not vindictive cows using the kids to get back at their exes.

I agree 100% with you.

They're a small minority. You don't hear about the majority because they're busy being good parents with the mother and father working together. I think the figure is dispute in 6% of the cases.

I wish I were in the other 94%...

The mother should be put in prison and the child handed to the father if the mother hinders conduct. Only in that way will these mothers be stopped but silly judges refuse to exercise that power.

goodness grief, how is that in a childs best interest to see their mum put in prison because contact has been withheld, anyone who forces their child to see a NRP when they don't want too does not consider their childs mental health at all

NO Xenia. What should happen is that we have a really good conciliation service for couples separating and divorcing in this country who work things through with both parents and kids in order to resolve these issues.

The mediation service although ok isnt as good as it should be and a service like relate which was free and parents had to attend when going through a divorce would make a huge difference to working these things out and getting people help in dealing with the bitterness.

Lostdad, my commiseration to you I cannot imagine how awful your situation is but gender politics are anything but silly.