Fathers 4 Justice

[dolallylass]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it galling that these fathers are scaling building and yet some dads can not get out of their commitment to their kids quick enough??

Where is Mothers 4 Justice crusading for more contact??

I am so sick of doing it all and having to take what my xh can offer graciously (well as graciously as I can muster!!) and then listening to how fathers need more rights. I know there are some fantastic fathers (my neighbour is one) but there are many fathers who leave, drop responsibility and then try and ask for gratitude for the little they do!!

Seriously is there a Mothers 4 Justice or are we all too bl**dy busy??

This is a link to a US study.

Another US study comparing death rates/causes between post-partum women and other women of child bearing age.

men don't generally report themselves as victims of DV because of the 'shame' factor and that they are usually not believed by the local plod.

again, the home office stats report 1 in 6 men as victims of DV.

I don't see the problem with accepting that men can suffer DV too - what is your fundamental problem with that? Does it contradict some personal belief of yours that only men are violent????

Oh, the quotes, the quotes!!

The study that CombustibleLemon linked to says in the conclusion section that

"When interpreting this report?s finding that homicide is the second leading cause of injury-related death among pregnant and postpartum women, it is important to note that our findings regarding homicides involving pregnant and postpartum women are similar to national statistics1 on homicide among all women of reproductive age (regardless of whether they are pregnant or not)."

I don't really know what point you're trying to make with this ....?

that in america firearms are a leading cause of homicide and in part of USA pregnant women are killed too ....?

dittany, I'm glad that we are both in agreement that DV occurs in female on male and male on female and same sex couples.

You are correct in that the reported rates of male on female DV are higher than the female on male. 1 in 4 compared with 1 in 6 (according to the home office).

Violence is wrong in all forms and is completely unnacceptable

Gender stereotyping is wrong in all forms too

It's a shame that when decent men and women work together for the benefit of children (including groups like FNF and it's sister group Mothers Apart from Their Children, with the two working together very closely) that people are prepared to ignore facts in the interests of misandry.

The mothers in the organisation I have met whose children are prevented from spending time with them are in exactly the same situation as the fathers. Funny enough (and it's not funny)...in these cases very often they are the ones accused of domestic violence.

My opinion of RP fathers who block contact is identical to that of mothers who do it. It is not a gender issue. Anyone who deprives a child of a good, loving parent is putting their wishes before the child's needs.

Come on Dittany - you don't really believe that all women are victims and all men are abusers do you? Isn't an attitude like this deeply insulting to women?

There is nothing worse than being denied contact but many more men choose not to see children than are denied contact. My children's father could have them 50% of the time but in 5 yeras he has never once has them to stay the night and sees only 2 of them ever and then only for 1 - 2 hours. Although fathers technically have a right to apply to court to see their children (and I am not saying that is always granted and I do believe strongly in father's rights) childen have no right to have their fatehr see them. In other words the father has a right but the children have none despite family law supposedly putting the children first.

If we had a rule that where both parents work full time then on divorce the partners have the children 50% and only depart from that rule if you can convince a court otherwise fathers and mothers would be a lot better off and children too. You would then split child benefit and tax credits 50/50 and not pay child support as you'd have the children half the time each.

Xenia I totally agree about children's rights here. That is what is important and why some of the pressure groups deservedly get bad press. Dont agree about split contact though as there is evidence it is not good for kids.

Where is the kids for justice group by the way?

My two eldest no longer see their father - their choice alone but we had to have every allegation in the world thrown at me in order for them to be heard and listened to. Even now X still thinks his abuse and hitting them was blown out of all proportion and what is worse at times in court that view became prevalent.

Women's Aid ensured I got counselling and made sure I stayed safe I think dissing them is very low indeed.

Plenty of parents have their children one week and not the next or half the week and weekend each. And 50/50 is the norm in some scandinavian families. Children are very adapatable and if you've have both parents heavily involved in your care who both work full time I think it's a very appropriate order and is fair. Older teenagers never want to move from their rooms even to talk to their resident parent so that's a different situation.

Far far too many women deny men contact. Even if a child of 5 - 8 refuses to go a mother can still physically pick the child up and dump it in the father's car. Given most children benefit from seeing their father mother's should force the contact for younger children even if the children don't want it. It does us all good to do things we don't like anyway and to visit a father to please him even if you don't want to is never going to kill any child. More mothers should have that attitidue post divorce.

You can't tar all fathers with the same brush. They are individuals, just like us mums

Xenia I do not agree with forcing children to do things they dont want to.

As everyone has said abuse is different but proving it can be tricky. My kids were only believed after they had an experienced guardian appointed and their own solicitor. Things changed dramatically after that and their story was heard. When I presented their story it was always made out to be my opinion and not true.

Family courts often dont take enough notice of the kids and their opinions and getting their voice heard is hard.

Glitterfairy if children don't want to brush their teeth or wash their hair, or go to bed at bedtime or eat anything but chips is it good parenting to say 'oh ok, I don't want to make them and they really don't want to so I won't force them...'

As a responsible parent it is our job to ensure that they do these things and to convince them to do them when they might not want too.

This is no different to being active in insisting children who say they don't want to see their dad, or don't want to go back to mum's after seeing dad realise, that they need to do these things and will benefit from them long term. SOme things are non negotiable.

In situations where children are being physically or emotionally abused that is different. But giving into a child who says they don't want to see their other parent is not responsible parenting imo. If dads didn't return children after contact because they said 'oh it's more fun here than with mum, i don't want to go back to mean old mum', no-one is going to say "oh that's fine, it's what they want so must be best" now are they. Well except maybe the dad...

Actually I disagree and think that everything is negotiable.

Once my X had left who was a bully and an abuser I tried to engage my kids in the process of decision making at all levels. Perhaps when they were younger I would have imposed more rules and I would accept that when children are young boundaries are there to prevent harm.

However I hold by the principle of seeking to understand rather than to be understood and frankly would not force my kids into relationships they did not want to have. I would want to know why they didn't want to do something including brushing their teeth. I expect if they only ate chips they would soon get bored but no I wouldn't stop them.

As for contact I think having a good time is important and when kids say they dont want to see a parent understanding why not is equally as important and no I wouldnt force them but would hope (if I didnt have an abusive X ) that people could work with the children on making it all more palatable.

I would add that this doesnt mean we dont have rules but it is a process where the children are jointly responsible for them and for the results if they dont follow them.

We have a family mission statement and a set of values and principles which we try to live by but all of them have been a process we have worked towards together. We used mind maps and white boards and had discussion around how we wanted to live our lives and what sort of a family we wanted to be.

The children set their own bedtimes and if they dont go at their set time they have devised their own set of punishments which I have to say are far more dreadful than anything I would ever do.

how old are your children Glitterfairy?

glitterfairy - and if your children said they didn't want to clean their teeth/bath/wash their hair/go to school/treat you and others with respect ... would you go along with that?

being a parent is just that - you are the parent and the child is the child, by all means they have to explore, make their own mistakes, learn from life, but there has to be boundaries and consequences ...

yerblurt, thank you for your response.

My X was violent towards both me and the kids and when they did something wrong eg drop something or damage a CD would haul my ds round the house by his ears and hit him round the head.

When I finally chucked him out I was left with three kids who if they lost something were so scared of the consequences would cry their eyes out and beg me to forgive them.

I believed that the best way to help them was to free them and give them control back. I wanted them to talk to me about values and ways of treating people and they did. We did an awful lot of work together and talked a lot.

At one point when they were being forced to see their father and he still hit them and had broken into the house and stolen loads of stuff we instituted a blessing tree so that we could literally see how many good things there were in the world as well. When we left that house (after a court battle because he refused to give us any money) we planted that tree in our garden with over 300 blessings on it.

It was my job to ensure my kids were not damaged. I wish things had been different but they were not and they have wonderful manners. I had to trust them and when I put that control in their hands trust they would make choices I would understand but perhaps not agree with.

If you have ever read a book called Summerhill school by Neil you will understand where I was coming from. I completely understand that some people would have problems with trusting a child to make appropriate rules but I think that it is imperative when they have been subjected to a regime of cruelty from an adult that power and control are never really used against them again.

I have to say it gave the courts a few problems and at the final hearing the solicitor said they were the most extraordinary children she had ever met and that there was no way they could be forced to do anything against their will as they were incredibly articulate. I take pride in that considering what they have been through.

All three have made different choices with regard to X my little one (9) still sees him and has had help from social services around saying no and safety. My ds (12) saw him until Christmas when he was incredibly cruel and manipulative with him and ds has broken off contact. My dd (13) has not seen him now for one and a half years since he assaulted her.

yerblurt, this is Glitterfairy's dd and I think you are very silly. Why wouldn't we want to brush our teeth/wash and whatever because otherwise we would look and feel stupid! Mutti (Mum) has brought us up to look after ourselves and take responsibility for our actions. Personally I would hate eating chips and sweets all day and would much rather prefer some kidney bean stew thing that Mutti made. Also Mutti has said if we wanted to eat rubbish all day we'd have to make it ourselves and I think that having her cook is much better. We are having my favie tonight. ;) xxxxx

Dittany, do take a chill pill dear you seem to have too much sun today

Your words;

"Notice the way yerblurt likens not wanting to be made to spend time with a person abusing them, to a child saying they don't want to brush their teeth."

I made no such comparison, I was asking a question... it's in your mind that you seem to have made this connection...

"Did you miss the part where Glitterfairy said her ex used to abuse them yerblurt? -"

yes I did actually, I skim read some posts and after spending an exhausting fathers day at the local surestart centre - an event I have been working with the centre to get going incidentally - I'm a bit tired, so indulge me.

that does put a different picture on things.

"Once again FNF's agenda is revealed as a belief in men's rights over children, outwith any consideration of the child's well-being."

you couldn't be more wrong, but don't let a simple thing like the facts get in the way eh? Carry on!

Rumbled!

We're going to have to perpetuate the Worldwide Evil Patriarchy (TM) elsewhere, Yerblurt!

See you at the Vile Male Oppresser Bring and Buy Sale next week!

If children will be illegally hit when with a father that's different but there are countless legions of divorced women in the UK whose children say they don't want to see their father and the mother gives in. That's very very wrong in my view. Children should be forced against their wishes to do all kinds of things including seeing the parent they don't live with obviously up to a certain again and also not when the other parent will hurt them. Even then they coudl have supervised contact with the man's parents present at all times etc.