Fathers 4 Justice

[dolallylass]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it galling that these fathers are scaling building and yet some dads can not get out of their commitment to their kids quick enough??

Where is Mothers 4 Justice crusading for more contact??

I am so sick of doing it all and having to take what my xh can offer graciously (well as graciously as I can muster!!) and then listening to how fathers need more rights. I know there are some fantastic fathers (my neighbour is one) but there are many fathers who leave, drop responsibility and then try and ask for gratitude for the little they do!!

Seriously is there a Mothers 4 Justice or are we all too bl**dy busy??

Let's hope everyone gets an 'experienced' CAFCASS officer then...

www.ofsted.gov.uk/assets/Internet_Content/Shared_Content/Cafcass/files/cafcass_se_ web.pdf

IME Cafcass are on a par with the CSA. They don't do their job properly. They cut corners, there are unacceptable delays and are consistently late submitting reports giving no time for corrections or queries. And they don't follow their own guidelines and persuade parents to accept reports and situations that are not as they should be. The report is then presented as agreed when it is frequently not agreed.

Unless you know what they should be doing you have no idea you are being given a poor service until it's too late. Then again if you kick up a fuss and point out where they are not sticking to their guidelines you get labeled a trouble maker and put the CO's back up and that can work against you too!

I think most people expect the courts to be fair and do what is right for the children. IME and going by the experiences of people I find it is basically a lottery. And the outcome is by no means certain for anyone!

Family courts are conducted behind closed doors and are not answerable to anyone. I don't think people realise just what goes on behind these closed doors until they experience it themselves or know someone who does.

People I tell of our experience can not believe it and think there must be more too it and that clearly there's some reason that the court went along with mum. It is simply not true. The judge was simply trying to get an agreement. Dad had to agree to mum's unreasonable terms or not get to see his daughter. And as he was constantly told 'what's more important, seeing your daughter for a couple of hours on mum's outrageous terms or refusing to give into mum's demads which means you won't see her for at least another 4 months and then the court might not let you given that you are not willing to compromise...'

CAFCASS did not treat both parents as equal and there was definitely an attitude of mum know's best and that mum must be kept happy as a happy mum equals a happy child. She used this to her advantage at every oportunity.

I am also shocked by the number of people I speak to who say they had similar experiences when they seperated from their first wife/husband, or who give up when faced with such hostility or can not afford the finacial and emotional costs of going to court and so have to walk away. A lot of excluded dads (and mums) ime don't speak about their experiences because people automatically assume that there is no smoke without fire and that the courts will do what is best.

I think we can all agree where there is abuse it is not in the best interest of the children. But where there are false allegations (which you can not defend in the family court), and there continues to be so much annimosity between seperated parents the children's best interests don't always remain priority. Resident parents know they won't get sent to jail if they with-hold contact (and it's not just mum's, my neighbour's ex does this with her children and he is a resident dad). So what is there to deter them from being difficult exactly? Yes jailing parents isn't probably best for the children. But allowing them to get away with with-holding contact is also not in the best interest of the children.

glitterfairy, i do not disagree with you in principle, but I have ot say that our experience does not bear this out.

of course, you do not know us, and all I can do is say that there is absolutely no reason why dh should not have more access to his children than he does/has had. His only crime (if you can call it that) is that his marriage broke down, andthat was not all his fault - there were two people involved after all.

He has always paid maintenance on time and at very good levels (not sayng he needs gratitude/plaudits for this, just stating a fact. It is only what he should be paying for his children), walked away with literally nothing except a duvet and a couple of towels, and was homeless for a few years while he got back onto his feet as he left the house (mortgage free) and all assets with his ex. He has always paid school fees, and any extras, and has always wanted to be involved in his children's lives.

But he hasn't been allowed to be. In the most recent court case (sadly, he has had to go back to court more than once due to his ex ignoring the contact orders) which I referred to below, he wanted to have contact times set out again, and was fighting for the right to be involved in decisions such as where the children went to school at more than bill-paying level.

The cafcass officer quite rightly said that the children's views should be heard, and spent time with them doing this. Despite dh wanting to be involved inthis process, his ex said that she would not comply if he was at the meetings too, and so they went ahead with just his ex and the children. The children said numerous things as set out below, many inconsistencies in their thinking, and his daughter said that she wanted to goto a school where she could play lots of sport and be involved in theatre studies. somehow she also made this include her present school, where she is unable to play her favourite sports due to lack of fields/lack of interest form the other girls (no more mixed teams now due to age) and does no theatre studies/does not even put on an annual play. Her view was paramount, and so she stayed at her present school, despite it not giving her what she actually wanted (friends etc were not an issue as her friends are mostly not at the same school as her anyway).

the cafcass report found that she was mature enough to have a say in this matter, but then later in the report said that shew as not old enought to know how often she wanted to see her father. the glaring inconsistencies were noted in court, and the report was found to largely be a waste of paper.

we were living abroad at the time (with dh's ex's blessing I might add) and dh had supplied a computer and phone line for the children to be able to call him whenever they wanted, at no expense to his ex (he paid all bills). His ex banned the children form using either the phone or the computer unless she was specifically asked for the phone or the password. and then got upset when they did, and so they stopped asking (unsurprisingly).

she lost on all points in court, but again, unsurprisingly, nothing has changed. We do not currently have the money to go back to court again, and so dh lives with sporadic contact.

sometimes, the system just does not work.

x-posts gillybean. I agree with you - we too were told to just agree to what dh's ex wanted, as that was what was going to hapen anyway, so we might as well get used to it...

And me...pretty much what I was told. I was also told that because I wouldn't agree 100% with what my ex wanted (and I mean 100%) that I was refusing to `compromise'.

Gillybean and silverfrog, I agree with everything you said. I am shocked that mum was allowed to be present when the kids were interviewed as that was never ever my experience.

We all have different experiences though. My experiences of CAFCASS were appalling to begin with and I put in a formal complaint about our officer despite my solicitor and barrister telling me not to.

After that things changed and I had meetings with senior people who listened to me and the kids and they appointed a truly admirable man to be the kids guardian. He often told me off as well so wasnt in the least biased but his reports broke through into the abuse and he wasnt charmed by my X. He was very straight and to the point and spoke only for the children refusing to be influenced in any way by either me or my X.

Whilst experience is sometimes valuable there are things I have said which are generic.

1. The family court system needs overhauling and the secrecy surrounding it needs reviewing.
2. We need a proper conciliation and reconciliation service for parents and children which is outside the court system and parents have to go through in contested residency cases. This service should actively work to bring about the best solution for the kids and to listen to both sides working towards a more amicable framework.
3. Somehow the system needs to include the kids more from day one not just in being interviewed but at a set age involving them in decision making and ensuring their voice is properly heard.

I do not believe that seeing things from one gender or the others viewpoint is helpful. Children need parents and sometimes only a parent. They need stability and to retain some control over a process which they often feel guilty about anyway. It is preferable that there are few rules as to how things should or should not turn out imo and the more flexibility which can be put into a contact order the better things are in practice. the more draconian they are the worse things turn out.

Glitterfairy: Amen.

Silverfrog, you made a comment that in my opinion showed a lack of fortunate lack of understanding of the reasons a mother might try to keep her children's father out of their life.

You said it would be down to 'spite and bitterness' (I think, not trawling back through pages of posts now).

If I were to cut out my children's father from my life it would be down to stress/anxiety which makes me physically ill, the absolute need to be able to function as a parent, desire to maintain a minimum level of happiness, security and consistency for the children, the need to get on with life and be able to think about things other than xp's various antics which can be fairly all-encompassing.

'Spite and bitterness' would not be the two most common reasons for a mother to take the very difficult decision to prevent her children from having frequent contact with their father.

It's not an attack on you personally, it just happened to be you who made a comment. Probably a widely held misconception amongst people who have NORMAL, Sane, Reasonable well-balanced husbands and brothers. A lot of the time, the men being kept at arms length are being kept at arms length for a very good reason.

`'Spite and bitterness' would not be the two most common reasons for a mother to take the very difficult decision to prevent her children from having frequent contact with their father.'

Could I ask what you base this on?

In my case - how would I be able to distinguish between my ex doing her best to block contact because she is suffering `stress/anxiety' and her saying that to achieve the same end? Serious question.

greenelizabeth: the only reason why I picked you up on that point is that i fully understand why some women would keep their children away from the children's fathers.

In the very post where I mentioned spite and bitterness (which, as I have pointed out is a comment on the situation dh & I have) I also said that I believed that in cases where DV/abuse occurred, children should not be made to see their father.

I only took offence (and I mean this phrase in the loosest possible sense) because you seemed to be taking only part of my post and commenting on it.

the bit of my post to which you are referring, i believe is "it should ot be allowed AT ALL to keep children away from a parent due to spite/bitterness. And it does happen. a lot", which was not meant as a comment saying that ALL cases of separation from parents was due to spite and bitterness, but as a comment saying that those cases where this is the case are unacceptable, on any level.

I am just putting across the opposite side, where my dh is separated from his two very much loved children, and purely down to spite and bitterness.

Shame on you Dittany for using a tragedy to make a cheap point.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Silverfrog I agree that no parent should keep their kids from another because of their own issues. Nor should spite and bitterness be acceptable but they are there nonetheless and unless there is help out there to deal with that it is difficult to see how resolution can come about.

The desperate tragedy of Amy and Owen Philcox has nothing to do with contact issues and is solely to do with an unhinged person. I notice that the press is now talking about how he was in contact with F4J so I might be proved wrong about the contact but he was clearly unhinged.

People take divorce and separation very badly and that includes both men and women. As I have said repeatedly punishments for their behaviour are too late but what is needed is reform of the system and help at the start.

[http://www.afccnet.org/pdfs/AFCCGuidelinesforParentingcoordinationnew.pdf]] THis is a link to parenting coordination in the States and Canada something which looks as though it does help even in high conflict cases.

LostDad, maybe you are not as vile, poisonous and as insane as my xp, but I actually struggle to function some days, crushed as I am under the full weight of his hatred, insults, madness. It is relentless. A year on, he still hates me a lot more than he loves the children.

I would love to take the decision to cut him out, not out of "spite and bitterness" , but because I still have a tiny voice in the back of my head that I deserve some peace of mind and maybe even have the right to be happy?? My children deserve a sane, happy, secure mother, who does not have to use ALL her emotional resources batting off the continual enslaught of hatred that comes my way.

Not all men are as insane and as bitter as my xp.

In a perfect world, I'd share custody 50:50 so that I could get a part time job.

Instead I am thinking about having cognitive behavioural therapy to try and distance myself from all his abuse. So that I can brush it off when he tells me I'm so stupid I couldn't cook a ready meal, or that I couldn't cope, that I'm a loser.... on and on and on.

This is my experience of course, but I hope it is giving some of you just a TINY insight in to the life of a woman who considers cutting her children's father out.

glitterfairy, I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you are saying.

"Nor should spite and bitterness be acceptable but they are there nonetheless and unless there is help out there to deal with that it is difficult to see how resolution can come about." I do take issue with your last bit there, the "it is difficult..." bit. It is not difficult to see how resolution can come about in an otherwise straightforward (ie no DV, no abuse, not even any infidelity to be bitter aout) marriage breakdown. I am not sure that the courts would want to be involved in the kind of in depth counselling that dh's ex would appear to need. They split up 12 years ago, and she still cannot reconcile herself to the fact that they will not be getting back together. It is not help with contact arrangements that she needs, but help to move on with her life, and i'm not sure how that can be provided by the courts.

greenelizabeth and dittany having been in an abusive marriage I can totally understand where you are both coming from. I will never get over grieving for the loss of a family life I so wanted and worked so hard to maintain but I can create something different and better.

I choose not to remain a victim of his bad behaviour and to create the family I want to have (as I said Womens Aid helped me immeasurably here and I will remain grateful to them for the rest of my life). After three years I hope that I am not bitter and whilst I am a strong feminist can understand how some fathers feel alienated and estranged when they have done nothing wrong.

I have a wonderful ds and I would hate to lump all men in with my X when I know my ds has learnt from his dads behaviour and will (crossed fingers) be gentle and kind. Should he ever become estranged from his kids because his X remained bereaved for 12 years I would hope that I could support him and his kids.

I do think though silverforg the courts should be a last resort and that to start with their should be a kind of semi counselling/support service which helped people make some rules and boundaries in the interests of their kids for their new roles.

We learn to be parents every day and our kids teach us most of the time how to be better people. My X remains bitter and he will have to live with his behaviour. My kids need to be kept safe and happy and that means they choose to see him or not depending on his moods and behaviour but we see all around us evidence of couples who have split up well and still manage an amicable relationship for the kids and themselves.

Strangely I was talking to my youngest this afternoon about this and she said the sad thing was that she wanted a dad who she trusted and didn't have to worry about what he would do next. She also said when he is on good form he is great. So I said how well she had done in continuing the relationship and how proud I was of her for overcoming her fear in order to see him. We had a long talk and hopefully I supported her choices despite my own misgivings.

I would hate for my kids to grow up thinking I had kept them from their dad or that I had not let them develop their own beliefs. I cannot think of a worse condemnation for a parent. Yes he was abusive towards them and they have made a choice to see him or not but whatever that choice I have respected it and obeyed the letter of the law at all times.

Those are really important questions Dittany. Her siblings dont see her father anymore because they have chosen not to.

When her father has been abusive I have called in social services and the police, she knows I protect her. As I said when she is asked she says she wants to see him and yes I am proud of her stubbornness. I would support her if she didn't want to see him as well. Social services asked her the same question and she is admant that she wants to see him. Just as if she was adamant that she didnt want to see him I am fair in that it is her choice.

I agree that something is very wrong in that relationship but she needs to work it out herself with him and come to her own conclusions. I know that this is a risk but it is one I am prepared to take, knowing both her and my X. I might not make the same choice in other circumstances.

My eldest has not seen X for one and a half years and has cut all contact, my ds cut contact after Christmas, so hasnt seen X for over 6 months now.

AS I said I am fair and support their choices and protect them. I make a risk assessment and understand if others think I am wrong. I do this for her and not him.

X has asked to take her to France and I said no. I need to be able to get her if something goes wrong and also his gf is friends with a paedophile who lives over there so no they wont be going abroad ever. Contact is every other Sunday for 9 hours and twice he has bought her back as he upset her. I know he will now as he is frightened I will call the police if he doesnt.

Again I understand if you disagree and have a different view.

I would also add that I do live with the repercussions with my ds who says I didnt protect him enough when we were together and he got hit.

He is right. I will have to live with that as well. It is hard to understand when I look back on it but I know I felt powerless and helpless. As my ds says though as soon as I faced up to him things changed and I called the police every time something happened.

I would expect you to know dittany that the police say that when someone calls the police there have probably been about 8 other occasions when they didnt.

Many women feel overwhelmed and lack self confidence with which to deal with abuse.

You are not out of line dittany at all. It is a perfectly reasonable question.

She has decided to see him and I wont stop her. If and when she decides not to see him then I will also support her. She has had help from SS and still wishes to see him and her view is very strong.

X was most abusive to ds and he wanted to see his father until lately. He has a counsellor and worked through his feelings with him.

I agree that he is a time bomb but dd knows that and works to stay safe. We all make decisions which are wrong and perhaps I am wrong but I dont think so on this occasion. If he goes too far and leaves a mark he has been already told in court the kids will never see him again and he will be prosecuted.

But most fathers denied contact are not abusive. The cafcass people are low grade incompetents on the whole. The best route for fathers is sadly to have the mother removed from the house or remove the children, deny the mother contact so that the status quo of father with children will be remained whilst commissioning a private report on the mother's failing, psychological issues. Unless you have the money for that it is very hard as a father to have the children live with you all the time or 50% of the time because the whole system is so very sexist.

I think the plan is to change to law so that not jail sentencences but financial consequences for mothers who deny contact and asbo type things can be imposed. Unless and until we get to a position where mothers denying contact have a really hard penalty against them we will never get anywhere in achieving fairness for men after divorce. At the moment all the courts have to say is child will suffer if mother suffers therefore no punishment for mothers disobeying court orders. It's a pathetic system, enough to make any man contemplating divorce move his family to a pro father jurisdiction first.

lets also do the same for fathers who don't pay for their children but still want to exercise their right, lets put a ball and chain on them and brand them and walk them round the village, yeah lets throw them in jail aswell whilst we are at it, oh no shock horror its only about what to do with the women who make things up (no evidence supplied) that their ex's are a waste of space

Xenia, why are you so hell bent on punishing everyone but in particular women?

How very strange.

Tinkerbel lol!