prevent children from relocating abroad with the other parent

[reallywanttohelp]

NC for this thread.

A (male) friend of mine had a brief and unhappy marriage (now divorced for a couple of years) and two children from it. The mother of the children is originally not from the UK and had asked the family court for a permission to relocate with their children back to her own country (non EU, not English speaking, and very underdeveloped).

His children are his life (without any exaggeration, he is talking about them all the time), he sees them almost every week, and has a very close and loving relationship. They go on the day trips, to zoos, parks and museums, and are really happy together. He also plans to apply for at least a 50/50 custody once they are a little bit older and the court takes their views into account.

He will have a direct access barrister representing him during the process (which will cost him all his savings), but he is currently retraining for a new career and does not earn anything so cannot afford a solicitor on a day-to-day basis. The mother has a professional job (they met through work) and is reasonably well-off, it is not the case that she struggles in any way - a homeowner, has a cleaner / nanny / dog walker, able to afford nursery fees etc.

He asked me to help with all possible arguments why the children should not be relocating abroad (they spent almost their life in the UK, despite being born in that country). Not from the legal perspective, it will be the barrister's job to convert them into the statement for the court, but rather from the children's perspective. He is very distraught now and not thinking straight, this application was a complete surprise for him.

I see a lot of speculation on this thread, so probably it will be better if it dies of. Who had been in a similar situation and successfully opposed relocation - thank you very much for your comments, very appreciated. We discussed this yesterday and read some case law, and it does not look like the situation is too grim.
I don't know where £7 child maintenance mentioned by several posters comes from. He was paying close to £2K / month when employed full time, plus 50% of the mortgage on top. Now pays around £500, as he is working part time only, to fit around his studies.

@reallywanttohelp if it is ofbenefit to the mothers career and the child's life overall ( example being mum has more money and can provide a better life for the child) it's highly possible she will be allowed if she has clear plans in place for dad to maintain contact with the dc, especially as his maintenance has dropped.

If it goes to court, which would be expensive, she would have to prove that it was in the childrens best interest to make such a big move.
If she has a lot of extended family support and a job to go to over there, then she may well be able to do this, especially if your family member is offering so little at the moment and is in a houseshare and doing no overnights.
I understand that this must be worrying fir your family member, but also if he had children with a foreign national. AND left her when she was pregnant, its hardly surprising that this has come up as a possibility. I feel sorry for women forced to stay away from family support because of a man

You implied he was out of work which means uc and the maximum payment for child support is £7 a week

Really from how you describe him he doesnt sound like a devoted dad you must have known saying he lived in a house share and had his children most weeks would be inflammatory? If not....welcome to mumsnet!

A lot of men talk about what great parents they are because they REALLY love their kid, whilst doing fuck all.
I have a family member that rarely turned up for contact, never sent the mother money, but kept going on about saving up for a tattoo of his kids name. Dont necessarily believe it just because hes related. Actions speak louder than words

Every 5 year old gets a free school lunch, it's universal confused

Only in England.

My friend has done 50/ 50 with her arse of an ex since their son was 2. Both work full time in high flying jobs. It can certainly be done.

He's telling some porkies about his motivations..

So he was paying £2k a month but quit to avoid the maintenance and now pays £500 (which seems highly unlikely if unemployed and training). Her income has dropped but expenses are high - London childcare costs an arm and a leg. She is presumably being forced to relocate to save costs but he wants to stop her so he can occasionally take the child to the zoo. He is dead set on pulling her down from her successful career isn’t he. In the end the child will suffer if she is impoverished. What a charmer.

I reckon it was the wife who at 8 months preg walked in on him banging someone else.

It’s the far more likely scenario.

" Pays for the oldest child's school lunches, as the mother is too busy to log in and pay for it, and the child goes hungry if the balance is too low."

Leaving aside the issue of free school meals, I don't know of any school that would leave a 5yr-old to go hungry if they didn't have the money for a school dinner.

It's this kind of exaggeration that makes people doubt how truthful your friend/relative actually is.

I don't know of any school that would leave a 5yr-old to go hungry if they didn't have the money for a school dinner.

This. I'm frequently late with school dinner payments. (Older child). The school feeds him then hassles me for money. No school leaves children hungry.

OP you need to critically examine what your family member is saying to you. Absent fathers often lie about their involvement in their children's lives to make themselves look better when really they're being pretty shoddy.

“Too busy time log in”! It takes around three minutes if it’s anything like my daughter’s school. Maybe she can’t afford it because he’s slashed his maintenance. Or maybe he is a lying deadbeat.

reallywanttohelp. I can't stress to strongly how important it is to look at the statement provided by the 'applicant' to relocate ,(the mother) in minute detail... and attempt to counter the arguments.
It is a LOT of work. It took me two solid days and 19 pages to go through every issue. But as your friend was a high earner I am assuming he has half a brain and can research facts. ?

It is the cost of employing someone (solicitor /barrister) on an hourly rate that makes these cases prohibitive in costs to most people but there is nothing to stop it costing you nothing if willing to put in the work.

My DH ex paid £24k to make this application and take it to a final hearing with a barrister. (Her useless solicitors send the bill to the wrong address - her name our house !)

The type of thing you need to look at will always be 'what is the child's best interests' .. so,
1Nursery standards in the new country.

Proposed schools and academic outcomes VS UK schools.

Extra curricular opportunities. In both old/new proposed countries.

Will the children be able to keep using their English language skills in the new country ? Or will they be lost ?

Long term - employment /university opportunities if English language becomes their second language. ?

The main reason normally given is that the mother will be psychologically disadvantaged if not possible to go. That here in the UK she has no support . Your friend has to disprove this. Showing the court that he has retrained and is prepared to be an equal Carer to his children shows a degree of commitment that MAY sway the judge , IF the judge believes his intentions are genuinely in the children's best interest and NOT a cynical ploy to exert control over his ex-wife and how she wishes to live her life.

He may also be able to demonstrate that all in all the mother would not suffer any psychological or material detriment, if she were not to be permitted to take them abroad - except the loss of their 'good and effective relationship with their father.' ..

It's a hard battle. If he is genuine he will fight tooth and nail. If he is feckless he will ring his hands and blame his wife and do little. Only you know which one of these he is.

Of course the eldest isnt going hungry at school. This guy just conned the OP into paying his half of a school trip or something similar while dripping poison about his Ex.

Get your £100 back OP.

There is a lot of nonsense on this thread, I am not sure if you have been fed this nonsense or simply want to believe he is the bad guy .

He has savings, wealthy family yet has no provision to have child overnight.

He applied for 50/50 care when baby was 6 months old ???? Clearly always has the interests of child .

Now wants 50/50 when had one overnight when mum was in hospital .

It reads like scripted bullshit that new partners are given.

Her useless solicitors send the bill to the wrong address - her name our house !)

And you opened it??? Knowing it was from her solicitor?

I'm thinking none of this makes sense and family or not it seems like a web of half truths the mum gets progressively worse the dad becomes saint like I'm unconvinced

Bye

I agree slipperywhensparticus. I just hope the OP has found this thread useful and stops wasting her time.

I really think I know the guy in this story, or it's all very similar based on what OP says- 1 kid rather than 2 but everything else is the same (based on what he's told me- I know what's untrue) except that he is the one who cheated on her when she was heavily pregnant. I really wonder if me and OP do both know this man and I hope she wakes up

reallywanttohelp who are you to this child? Are you a grandmother? An aunt?

Do you have a relationship with the child? Is it that you're worried you'll lose contact with your granddaughter / niece if they move away?

The OP isnt the grandmother, she said in a previous post that she doesnt think the paternal grandparents want to get involved. Which in itself should be a massive red flag.

I’m guessing this is either your Son or Brother, OP, so you don’t want to hear bad things said about him.

But think very carefully - at the moment, if he sees them “most” weeks and never overnight, he can be seeing them for what; 52 days a year?

If the children would end up having a better quality of life abroad then maybe he should consider allowing them to move? If he gets an agreement that they will come back in the holidays, it is likely he will end up being able to spend exactly the same amount of days with them... so what exactly is the difference?

At the moment he’s acting like a spoilt toddler who has been told one of their toys is getting thrown away, so of course it becomes their most favourite thing ever.

I know a mum who was given permission to take the dc to live in Australia. The dad objected BUT he had not kept up contact with the dc or maintenance so the judge was more sympathetic to the mum and she could prove that a better job with better pay and a tenancy in a nice area in Oz would give the dc a better life.
Also she had drawn up a plan for dad to maintain contact if he liked. He did for a bit but then didn't bother.

This is a very weird thread. It's full of the usual vague shite about what the actual relationship is and the story is more hole and contradiction than anything else.

Even taken at face value... There is a divorced couple with 2 children. They separated before the second was born. A judge has already made a ruling that actually this man should have contact for a few hours a week and no overnights with his children.

The father decided to quit his well paid job to retrain. But somehow manages to pay £500 CM a month plus half the mortgage. Plus he buys shoes and uniforms and school dinners for the child who he only sees for a few hours on a weekend but somehow knows that he school uniform doesn't fit and that her mother hasn't paid for the school meals she'd be getting free anyway (because the children are in London where KS1 children get FSM).

He has savings he can use for a barrister but not a solicitor and certainly can't use them to house himself in more than a flat share. Nor can he use them to pay £15 on a school dinners account (that the OP has personally paid for and witnessed the payment).

I'm not sure I can even begin to get to the bottom of the stuff about nationalities and where the kids were born. Possibility it's that the mum is from some dreadful, backwards country 4 hours by plane away where they speak a language of no value and offer no healthcare or reasonable education (this is how it was described, no?). Yet the ex wife is presumably well educated and has a high paid job. And required a post-Brexit at some point in the future EU citizen visa change to her non-EU spousal visa, which also allows her to work. But she needed some special dispensation visa arrangement post-divorce because... oh fuck knows.

The father is British and also a national of another EU country. And somehow the children have both these nationalities (as well as presumably the nationality of the godforsaken hellhole in which they were born).

The children were born in this 'third world' dump because the mother is a selfish bitch who desperately wanted to get UK citizenship but doesn't trust the NHS and prefers the inadequate healthcare available where she comes from. She suddenly disappeared from the UK 3 months before she was due with the first and lost her job. The poor beleaguered father had to live in the uk sometimes and sometime in this dreadful place at weekends.

Then the ex wife needed a different kind of visa to get back into the uk because she lost her job. But actually she didn't come back to the uk at all. Instead she stayed where she came from with a husband who worked in the uk and visited at weekends. They conceived another child there (who was also born there) and the wife had an affair. The husband came back on a Thursday and walked in on his 8 month pregnant wife shagging the OM. And a paternity test was required.

So the marriage ended. Then, inexplicably, the wife got some sort of 'we're getting divorced but I am married for the purposes of returning to the uk' visa (I bet that's an easy sell to the home office) and left her family, the possible father of her second child and all that to come back to the uk. She then got a well paid job and pays for a nanny and all that Jazz, while her ex-husband quit his job and decided to retrain as something indeterminate. But he's going to eventually go back to the well paid job.

And only now she realises that she wants to live in the country she inexplicably left after splitting up with her husband due to her own adultery.

There's also some complicated thing about the house buried in the consent order for this divorce. Some sort of meager order because she has no credit rating and can't get a mortgage.

Clear as mud.

And then there's the 'almost every week' aspect of it all. In which superdad takes his small children on nice days out (because the zoo is cheap) but borrows £15 from the OP. But he can't manage it every week because... well, it's tough taking your kids to the park every so often, isn't it?

If this isn't a poorly thought through novel plot, you need to recognise that this guy's story is bullshit, OP.