Maintenance, how much is enough?

[Longlongsummer]

I was wondering about maintenance payments. My ex has paid £180 a month for years. I get that it’s based on income, however he’s self employed so doesn’t declare half of it!

I used to have a good job however I decided to take a part time one to be around more for our son. I’m the main carer. So I don’t earn very much at all.

I think that this is very low. As effectively I am still covering over half of my child’s costs, in mortgage, clothes, food etc. My son in total does not cost only £360 a month I can tell you! I’ve added it up to budget better.

I’m sure that there are parents out there coping with less, less money and less maintenance. Why are we? Why aren’t we shouting that it’s not right?

I also pay for all the extra activities that my son does, music lessons, child care when younger, extra tuition. He has some mild learning difficulties and I’ve paid for extra help. I’ve paid for every single penny of everything without receiving any extra and I’m feeling a little sick of being both the main breadwinner and main carer.

I’ve talked with other lone parents, and this seems to be the norm. Mothers paid an amount based on CSA which is based not on what the child needs, but what the Dad earns and is the absolute minimum. And yet every father seems to take that as being ‘doing their fair share’.

And I’ve never complained to Ex. And yet I think, what are we doing as women, by just letting this happen? Why aren’t men paying half of the costs for their kids? Is this really common?

Also @Soontobe60 if you really want to look at everything, then my loss of earnings, pension and countless childcare costs could also be included. It’s completely clear who financially loses out massively if you include it all - me. Which if you’ve bothered to read my posts you would see.

So many feckless men enablers! I think some women are worse than the stingy exes. They are propped up by all the focus on the single mothers. Totally deflects from what is the truth of the matter.

If hes paying you maintence he is paying towards it. What you want from him is
irrelevant.

I actually think its attitudes like yours that give ex wives a bad name.

Im not enabling anyone. Im telling you what cms would tell you.

Us "some women" know that this could happen and have prepared for it. Us "some women" live in the real world where unfortunately being fertile doesnt set you up for life. Us "some women" have partners or husbands who do pay for their children even though you think all NRPs are absent and pay nothing.

Youre making massive generalisations based on your ONE experience.

I am in a situation where my ex stopped working so he didn’t have to pay maintenance. In fact, he refuses to claim benefits just so he doesn’t have to hand anything over.
CMO took him to court for the arrears, but say they are now unable to do anything as he is still refusing to pay.
He refuses to see his child, and has done for many years, because I see him as an ATM. This is despite me always being the higher earner, and him never paying towards childcare and rent when we were together.

On the other hand my DH pays the required amount, and increases it in line with inflation every year.

I think the government should enforce that each child is worth a certain amount as a minimum, and if they are unable to obtain that due to the NRP income, then it should be subsidised by the state.

@catspyjamas123 @Gizmo79 @Longlongsummer you are brilliant ladies. Ignore the enablers on here, I hear you. We did a 50/50 split of assets and a 30/70 split on contact. My share went into the deposit for my house and I have a mortgage which will be paid off in 14 years. His share was spent in the first year (so he says) and he rented a place large enough for the DC to share a room. Then he met his gf and he now rents a place where they can't stay, and gf has asked for them not to. He lives a good life with nice holidays and expensive hobbies and weekends away but he can't afford to move out which he says he wants to. He tried once and lasted less than a week. He has not been wise financially and it is irritating to see the equity from our marital home frittered away but hey, none of my business- he had exactly the same as me.

We are in the same industry but I earn 50% more than him. I used to earn double what he does but it nearly killed me with the stress of it all so I resigned and took a lower paid job. I actually think the CMS amount calculated for him to pay is fair except for childcare. At one point my childcare bills were £2k a month, thankfully less now but still my biggest bill after the mortgage. Also he underpays and has refused to uplift to the CMS payment for zero overnights because "things might change". He just doesn't see his children as being his responsibility.

Anyway, this time next year my DC will both be in secondary school and my huge bills will be a thing of the past thank goodness. I will be able to pay off the debt I have at the moment and build some savings. My sympathies will always be with the women who are literally doing it all. Stick with it, it will be worth it in the end and we will always know that we put our children first.

Also @Soontobe60 if you really want to look at everything, then my loss of earnings, pension and countless childcare costs could also be included. It’s completely clear who financially loses out massively if you include it all - me

You could say this about any mother though. Whether married or single it’s nearly always the mother that sah or goes pt, losing earning potential, pension- and it’s always “my wages don’t cover childcare so it’s not worth me going back to work”. The womans wage- childcare is not seen as a joint cost. Mother wants to work, she pays.

Women generally lose out financially post children. If they stay married they may be compensated by their h’s earning/pension, but 1:2 marriages fail and women will end up reliant on a man and staying married.

Societally we need to change so men pick up equal child responsibility from Day 1.

Oh, and I would never ever have predicted he would behave like this, when we were married we split all nursery drops and collections 50/50. He was extremely hands on and would take the DC off to the park to give me a break. It's hard to see the DC hurting when he says he can't have them to stay then Skypes them where they can see he's sitting on his sofa at home with his gf's children. You can never tell how a parent will behave after divorce.

Can you advise how exactly im "enabling"?

@holidayhelpppp I'm not explaining again. It's been lovely talking to other women in the same position as me and it has helped me to cope with the upset and stress a little better. @Longlongsummer thank you for starters no the thread. The answer to your original question is that it's very unfair, more should be done but unfortunately I would probably live with it as the CMS will not be able to get you more. Good luck x

You havent explained at all. You cant explain why im enabling, because quite simply, im not.

OP I’m late to the thread, but wanted to offer my support and solidarity.

My child’s father has never contributed financially. Society does seem to put the boot into single mothers while giving absent fathers a “pass.”

It is unfair and yes, we should speak up but we’re mostly too exhausted from doing it all on our own!

(And ignore the awful posts - they rather prove the point!)

I wonder how the NR parents who don't contribute, and who make no effort to see their child, justify their behaviour? As a grandmother, if either of my DC broke up with their DW or DH, I would expect them to have as much involvement with their children as they could. I would also expect them to be fair in the organising of their finances. DGC are used to a certain standard of living, if their parents decided to separate, the children should be the last to suffer. Always.

The parents of these absent and financially irresponsible NR parents must be so proud. Either that or they behaved in the same manner when their DC were young.

Interesting point Gran a fair few RPs maintain a good relationship with NRP GPs. I did and it was something X resented, i think it made him look even worse as it showed i was not restricting access at all.

In hindsight, perhaps the whole management of the contact with the other side is perhaps best left to NRP.

Money is a difficult subject to raise with NRP GPs, if asked i told the truth but i think their main concern was that i didn't ask them for anything.

@DuchessMinnie thank you! You sound pretty awesome. Your children are lucky to have you keeping it all together. Your ex seems to take no responsibility and it’s scary really, without you propping everything up your kids lives will have gone to hell.

My sympathies will always be with the women who are literally doing it all. Stick with it, it will be worth it in the end and we will always know that we put our children first. right back at you! And so many others @lovemenorca @catspyjamas123 @Gizmo79 and @2BthatUnnoticed (sorry you’ve had to struggle so much, sounds very tough)

That is so true. Our children have security from us, we provide it, some of us virtually are doing it all. We do owe ourselves some pride and appreciation, we don’t get it much from elsewhere!

@Gran22 Good points, I think if you were many NRPs GP the world would be a much better place!

I think that the bar is so low, like has been voraciously defended here, that if NRP throw in a bit towards food many of us single mothers are just grateful for that, knowing that many mothers get nothing. I for many years, was also just grateful that he paid any kid of regular maintenance.

I kept up with exes GP, stayed with Gran regularly and really respected her as my sons family. However I never ever bought up money or maintenance. She would hear nothing but praise about her boy anyway. He told his family he was ‘paying more than CMS’ and they thought that he was very generous. Ex only sees our son a night or so a month, as my son doesn’t feel very welcome, Ex used to cancel loads. He sees his Dad as optional. However he tells his Mum it’s awful for him and he misses him hugely, and over the years he’s started to blame me for this lack of contact.

So it’s a very difficult one for family to see clearly. It really does start with a web of defensiveness and Exes are blamed to deflect it all. However it’s so heartening to hear you stick up for things.

I will certainly be making sure my son, if he’s ever NRP, will pay towards his child’s housing and childcare costs! Hopefully he’ll be one of the good ones. There is future hope.

I think that the bar is so low, like has been voraciously defended here

😂😂😂😂 god you're so dramatic.

Nobody has defended non payment of maintenance and nobody's defended dads not bothering with their kids

I certainly havent defended any of the twat exs mentioned on this thread

Ive agreed that the system needs to change

But because i think you should pay your own mortgage and both incomes should be considered (and remember that would likely benefit women on lower incomes) ive practically been labelled as part of Fathers for justice.

this is why nothing will change. You push away the people who mainly want the same thing as you only because theyre not an ex wife or believe in something that wouldn't benefit you personally though it probably would benefit women in general.

Youve misquoted me on almost every post.

If you wanted an ex wives club thread to bitch about men and how shit they are and how their new girlfriends are so awful, you should have started that thread and not this one which is just that but hidden under the guise you wanted an actual discussion about Cms.

Maintenance SHOULD be for housing, clothing, feeding a child. The NRP also has to house themselves but they presumably have the other 88% of their salary to do that once the CMS payment has been made. Also the RP has to provide a "proper" place to live with all the things a family household needs. Good NRPs will also do that. The RP's childcare, clothing, feeding etc costs are generally a lot more than 12% of their income.

There is no need to means test the RP because there is no issue with them not contributing. I have never heard of an RP hiding income, changing jobs, going self employed and paying themselves the minimum wage or putting more into their pension to avoid paying for their child. And that is the key difference.

The OP's ex is deliberately under declaring his income so she gets an unfairly low payment. There is nothing she can about this as the CMS do not generally do much to enforce where the NRP is self-employed. Most NRPs are men, therefore the system is weighted against women. Society is weighted against women, with women doing the majority of low paid roles and still doing most of the wife work at home.

@holidayhelpppp is right in that SOME RPs get a better deal and perfectly fine maintenance and practical support. That doesn't mean that the system is fair, just because a minority are ok.

We all agree that the current system is unfair, for whatever reason. But please don't deny that there is a huge, huge bias against women in the current system. Surely even if your own experience doesn't reflect that you can appreciate that this is the case- just look at some of the stories here and on other threads and then imagine this was you and the frustration you would feel if you couldn't do anything to enforce a fair payment from the NRP. Forget your own experience and how you would never let yourself be in this situation. The fact is that a lot of us are.

@Gran22 I wish my DCs' grandparents were like you. My ex's parents don't seem to realise that there is an issue. If they asked me directly I would tell them the truth but they show no interest.

Imo to make it fair both imcomes should be taken into account. This has nothing to do with "rps cant hide their money" etc etc. Thats not why i think it should be a factor.

I havent said there isnt a bias against women but the fact is its all women not just ex wives. All women are encouraged to do the childcare, do the housework etc etc. Thats not specific to those of us who are divorced.

Societies view of women being main childcare needs to change.

I know a lot of you are in this situation and ive already said (i know youve misread or ignored half my posts) id be frustrated too.

Iv already said it needs to change. Ive bene branded as the devil because i dont agree with exactly what those changes should be.

The thing is "half the costs" isnt measurable and wont happen. A higher % wont happen because some nrps simply wouldn't be able to afford it. More would probably quit jobs or go self employed it would be counter productive.

I dont know what the solution is because it would need to take into account loads of different variables and yet be universal and easy enough to roll out on the same scale as the CMS.

Calculating "fair" maintenance is probably, unfortunately, a near impossibility.

@DuchessMinnie yes it’s quite shocking that anyone can claim that maintenance to RP is just food and clothing so a few quid every week should sort it. It is exactly this kind of attitude that props up feckless exes like ours. This kind of view is insidious and demeaning of a child and what they need. If we as RP took the view that our child just needed food and clothes, whilst they slept on a couch and were denied holidays, presents, activities, mobile phone etc, then they’d need therapy as an adult for the financial abuse and neglect to them.

Many parents are not 50/50 and there is only one proper home for the child, which is also financially cheaper than keeping two ‘proper’ homes. So it is actually cheaper for the NRP to pay halves on housing for one home, rather than full costs for his own plus maintenance. I’m saving men ex money by taking on RP full time, even if he did pay half our sons roof over his head.

Thank goodness we do plug that gap from our own pockets, that many exes like ours do not even recognize are gaps. Keep going @duchess at least your words do validate that I am financially bearing most of the weight. That helps, just to be recognized.

@holidayhelpppp

You have spent a LOT of time on this thread. Dozens of posts. I have read the full thread.

And yet I’m still none the wiser as to what your actual point is.

I don’t suppose you could distil it in a couple of sentences?

The cms does need to change.

Demanding "half" will not work.

When a marriage or relationship breaks down irretrievably - that is the end. Full stop.

Where there is children, a co-parenting relationship, to whatever extent, continues.

To incorporate the RP’s income into the amount of child maintenance would be to indicate there is a continuing financial ie the amount the NRP pays is impacted by RP’s income

This is wrong. The NRP pays CM for his children in relation to his or her income. The RP’s income is completely separate.

I dont agree.

Demanding half the NRP’s income won’t work?

Just to be absolutely clear re your stance

No. Demanding half the costs of the child wont work.