Maintenance, how much is enough?

[Longlongsummer]

I was wondering about maintenance payments. My ex has paid £180 a month for years. I get that it’s based on income, however he’s self employed so doesn’t declare half of it!

I used to have a good job however I decided to take a part time one to be around more for our son. I’m the main carer. So I don’t earn very much at all.

I think that this is very low. As effectively I am still covering over half of my child’s costs, in mortgage, clothes, food etc. My son in total does not cost only £360 a month I can tell you! I’ve added it up to budget better.

I’m sure that there are parents out there coping with less, less money and less maintenance. Why are we? Why aren’t we shouting that it’s not right?

I also pay for all the extra activities that my son does, music lessons, child care when younger, extra tuition. He has some mild learning difficulties and I’ve paid for extra help. I’ve paid for every single penny of everything without receiving any extra and I’m feeling a little sick of being both the main breadwinner and main carer.

I’ve talked with other lone parents, and this seems to be the norm. Mothers paid an amount based on CSA which is based not on what the child needs, but what the Dad earns and is the absolute minimum. And yet every father seems to take that as being ‘doing their fair share’.

And I’ve never complained to Ex. And yet I think, what are we doing as women, by just letting this happen? Why aren’t men paying half of the costs for their kids? Is this really common?

@holiday your response above was more measured than your responses to me. I agree with a lot of your points above.

Yes exactly what I said! The government gives me more to look after his kids than he does. It's quite obvious I can't work yet because my son only does the 15 hours per week and it's not that I'm not looking for work it's finding a job to fit around stupid hours to give me time to collect my daughter from school drop my son at nursery... his mom seems to think it's more than enough meanwhile pouring down her daughters ear her partner should give her more maintenance even tho she only has one child(he was giving her £200 a month since she found out she was pregnant) funny isn't it how rules change for her daughter but she doesn't think her son should pay more.

How do you manage? Are you on sole benefits or do you work aswell? I'm on universal credit on £1115 and I have to deduct £575 for rent straight away plus car insurance, household bills it leaves me nothing. He seems to enjoy the fact that he can buy the kids fancy toys.

Well in order to reach a financial settlement I had to use a solicitor. Costs were extremely high and even though this solicitor is apparently “excellent” I’d say the work was shoddy. Lots of basic mistakes - factual errors which I had to correct, wrong case numbers, details not submitted. I was told the family courts work with a “broad brush” and can’t look at who paid what in a marriage. The courts are not fit for purpose and their are massive delays for basic admin. We didn’t reach court but settled through solicitors based on what it was presumed a court would find acceptable. The question is why don’t they go into the details? Especially with all the time and money that is spent. The financial settlement ripped me off and maintenance cash is a joke.

How much is enough? It is never enough. My ex was a high earner and I received approx £400 a month for 2 children, so I imagine the sum is fairly accurate.
Personally, if you are struggling it was not the best financial decision to go part time. Yes, I understand you want to be there for your child but if you cannot manage financially I would have a rethink.

How much is enough? It is never enough.

No, I am satisfied with my maintenance

menorca I think most people would be satisfied with maintenance that is about twice min wage a month!

@lovemenorca from the figure you gave I guess that isn’t just child maintenance but spousal too. You have done very well!

I would have happily agreed to take no child maintenance in return for paying a slightly lower lump sum to my ex. The courts apparently would not allow this.

long I haven't said anything different in that post than what ive said to you all along

Correct
It’s called global maintenance. Will cease when youngest 18 (currently 6)

£1490 CM portion.

I would like to be in charge of overhauling the system and making it fairer. I'm not saying it would be an easy job but if I could WFH one or two days a week I am pretty sure I could do it

duchess what factors would you take into consideration when working out what is fair?

@holidayhelpppp I would support RPs in working. I have always worked FT and have a decent salary but I had to give up my last job because it was too much so I have taken a 20% pay cut. I manage by the skin of my teeth and am not managing to save anything at the moment. Childcare is expensive and inflexible and often solely down to the RP when actually the NRP should be paying towards it as it allows both parents to work. The danger is that if if I was paying towards something as an NRP I would expect to select it and I might want a cheaper nursery while the RP wants an expensive live-out FT nanny and housekeeper. I don't know what the solution is but I know it needs a solution.

I would also enforce attendance at school meetings for the NRP. They enforce children's attendance at school so why can't we make the NRP go and listen to the teachers once or twice a year? Currently NRPs can opt out completely which helps them to disengage completely from their children's lives. I think this is harmful for the NRP as well as the DC- it is devaluing their role as parents. Obviously you can't force people to go to nativity plays and things but where feedback is given about the child's development- you should not be able to opt out of this.

My first step would be to create working groups of RPs and NRPs to find out first hand what the issues are then a joint group to create the overhaul. Yes, I know, it won't happen. I stand firmly by my opinion that if men were the disadvantaged party there would be a reform. Also workplaces need to be more open to men asking for flexible working- it is seen as something mothers do not fathers. I practise what I preach- I insist that all my staff do their best to make sports days, Christmas plays etc.

all good ideas!

all very difficult to put in place, I agree.

You're probably right that if more RPs were men that some changes would have happened already.

Workplaces need to be more flexible towards all parents, I definitely agree with that. Its great that you have that attitude, unfortunately a lot of other workplaces don't. My direct manager has the same stance as you, unfortunately her manager has an opposite one.

For me, I think yes getting groups of people together to discuss issues is the first step.

For us, having experienced it as the paying parent and the receiving parent, the overwhelming problem was that you are supposed to have "a caseworker" and you are supposed to speak to that person every time you call, but of course that doesn't happen, and so they tell you they will pass messages on and then don't, and you have to ring time and time again.

Being the paying parent was a nightmare, because they would send a letter to the ex saying dp needed to pay x amount, and then wouldn't send that same letter to dp until weeks later, and obviously ex would then lose her shit about not having the increase soon enough etc etc

that happened the other way round too, we got a letter about an increase and she didn't hear of it until about 3 weeks later.

The system is really shite. I also feel they don't explain how its worked out well enough, and they are not clear in what it should be for, and that causes arguments between parents.

I also found that certain members of staff were really dismissive of dp, accused him of lying about the letters that didn't turn up, but I found when I spoke to them as a woman, they were absolutely fine. Equally there are probably staff who are dismissive of women and more respectful of men. There seems to be a lack of training.

There are just so many things that I think you would have to take into consideration that it would be so complex to work out, and because those things could change often, like wages, other children, housing situations etc it would be a logistical nightmare to keep up to date.

I also think they should be quicker to take unpaid maintenance straight from wages. It could be done like a tax, so before you even have it its gone. TBF that could work universally as if you were going to pay it anyway, it wouldn't make a difference to you.

on the flip side, there needs to be more regulations for contact as well.

Its very very easy to withhold contact for no good reason, and court orders don't actually help you at all. You just have to keep going back over and over again, spending more money and getting no result. All whilst potentially not seeing your children. There needs to be consequences for parental alienation.

Equally I don't think absent parents should be allowed to walk in and out of childrens lives whenever they feel like it. Its disruptive and emotionally traumatic. Basically im saying everyone should have a contact order and stick to it, and there should be consequences if you don't (unless the change is agreed between you or there Is a good reason for it)

I think as well basing maintenance on overnights is idiotic and encourages some RPs to take advantage when they decide what they want contact wise.

You could have a child with you 8am-8pm 7 days a week, but if they sleep at the other parents house, you'd pay maintenance at the level it would be if you didn't see them at all.

For instance dps contact used to be one overnight on a Friday and then 7am - 9pm on a sunday. There was no way it was for the benefit of DSS, the poor kid was knackered on a Monday at school. It was to maximise maintenance. I am not saying all RPs do this, I know they don't but there are some who take advantage just as some NRPs take advantage.

Wow that was long!

The best thing is not to go via the CMS. Parents should be able to work out what’s due and settle it amongst themselves. CMS is for defaulters.

@catspyjamas123 agreed but sometimes you start off with a private arrangement then the NRP réalisés they can get away with paying less. My own ex pays 15% less than he should plus has never included his bonus as part of his PAYE income and he hasn't revised the rate in 6 years. I am contacting the CMS to get involved for the first time.

I would also crack down on under declaration of earnings from the self-employed. This is disgusting behaviour but you see it all the time.

I'm old so none of this applies to me, DH and I brought up our DC together, and they are bringing up their DC with the other parent. I guess we've been lucky. However, I read threads like this one and I seethe at irresponsible, NR parents who think a few quid a week makes up for all the responsibility of being a parent. Its time both parties in any conception took 50% responsibility for the child's life. Those parents who go to lengths to duck out of contributing to the children they conceived are the lowest. Almost as bad as the splitting parents who use their DC as bargaining tools!

Resident parents (mainly women) have the day to day responsibility of general parenting, ensuring DC are fed, dressed, at childcare, or at school, going to their clubs. They are also trying (often) to hold down a job and run a home on limited funds. The ones who dip in occasionally and buy treats (and are seen as the fun parent) are bad enough, but those that take no responsibility at all need some serious sorting out. Some of the US states remove driving licences if child maintenance arrears get to a certain level, that's followed by jail if they aren't cleared.

Why are the agencies in the UK so poor at ensuring what is due to children? And why, when maintenance is paid at a decent level, aren't means tested benefits reduced? Its a mess.

The best thing is not to go via the CMS. Parents should be able to work out what’s due and settle it amongst themselves

in an ideal world, yes. But realistically people who break up with each other don't often like one another, and aren't able to agree.

They often don't know what one another earn, or don't want the other parent to know which I think is fair enough.

How should they be able to work out whats due, exactly?

CMS is useless at sorting out defaulters, btw.

We both completed form E on divorce - both listed income and assets. Obviously income can vary and the NRP should declare that and make sure the kids get the right money. The bar is set very low anyway so it’s not hard to meet CMS obligations.

I never wished to be “depending” on a weekly payment from my ex. Not in 1,000 years. But the system insists I ask for a weekly payment rather than it being taken into account in the lump sum payment. We don’t depend on it anyway. If he doesn’t pay we can cope but the least he should do is pay up!

The problems start long before we have children with people (inc women) socialised to expect mothers to take a hit in their career and expecting to do the bulk of child rearing. Most RPs can't bear to see their child go without. If NRPs felt the same way we would be happier to 50/50.

not everyone is married, so not everyone gets divorced cats

I think the RPs income should be taken into consideration also personally.

No reason why the never-married can’t be made to declare income. In fact HMRC has the figures - except for the tax-dodging self-employed. RP’s income doesn’t matter. If you have a child you should support them. All RPs do this without question - the alternative is seeing your child in care!

Well yes thats what cms is for...

I think rps income is relevant personally.

If the rp is super rich and the nrp is struggling on min wage it makes no sense to pay "half" for example it wouldn't even be going to the child itd just be building up in the rps bank account.

We hear a lot about having continuity in lifestyle in both houses but apparently that doesnt apply when its the rp whos better off.....