British parents in France, French parents in GB - what are the best/worst bits about the way the other nationality raises their kids?

[Othersideofthechannel]

This is following on from the snacking debate in Food (sorry, can't make links work) and I do understand that not everyone from the same country chooses the same methods, but there are some cultural tendencies. Which one do you select/reject and why?
Anna8888 are you there?

French children eat with their parents and go to bed later, which is good if you're lazy like me and only want to prepare one meal and not be woken at 6am, bad if you like a long child-free evening. I'm with the French on this one.

French children are generally slim and eat more vegetables because of the family mealtime thing, so I'm sticking with them on this too.

Positive Parenting has yet to cross the channel. French parents can be pretty brutal in their discipline - I've seen much more public smacking here than in the UK. I'm with the Brits here [smug emoticon].

In the same vein, French parents like pre-war discipline and learning techniques in schools. I'm not keen.

Some French people think I'm clinically insane to use cloth nappies. The rest think we're dangerous eco warriors. Obviously I don't agree with them.

When French children settle down to watch after-school TV, they are fed a load of brain-melting Japanese tosh. We have a satellite dish, so mine watch Improving Output like Blue Peter.

I'll think of lots more later but that'll do for now!

How old are your children?

Big ones are 9 and 7, baby is 7 months.

How about yours?

4 and 2. I'm sticking with separate early evening meal and early bedtime at the moment but expect this will change when they are older. Otherwise there'll be no time to fit the homework in.

I adopted the French meal schedule through necessity, as I worked when mine were small and didn't get home til 6.30pm, so it was bath first (they had gouter at nursery so weren't starving), dinner and bed at around 8pm. If you don't work it's easier to do your own thing

Actually I've just gone back to work after 2yrs of conge parental but it is part time and i finish at 4 so I can pick up DS from school.

Yes I found you. But I don't have much time to come here during the weekend - more time on Monday and I look forward to very interesting discussions.

I'd like to know more about why you said this:
"I am constantly stunned here in France by the way mothers are supposed to separate from their babies at birth - snatched from the womb - and to lead lives regulated by the needs of parents and society from their first days on this earth.

One of the great aspects of globalisation is that more and more are able to share their experiences of life in different cultures and debate what is best for human beings. Personally I would go for no snacking (French) and being kind to babies (English). "

OK, here goes. Obviously I am making cultural generalisations.

In France, the system/culture discourages mothers from deep bonding with their children in a way that is generally viewed as natural and healthy in the UK. Pregnancy and childbirth are far more medicalised in France than in the UK (much higher epidural and episiotomy rates, anaesthetists and obstetricians almost always present at birth, home births almost unheard of), breastfeeding rates are still very low and medical personnel are generally poorly informed about its multiple benefits. Mothers are encouraged to get babies into a routine to suit parents and to prepare them for mothers' early return to work after the birth.

Co-sleeping is viewed very poorly indeed in France, with many prominent child psychiatrists and psychoanalysts considering it a form of incest that will damage a child for life and set it up for years of therapy.

The mass institutionalisation of children's lives, with crèches from 10 weeks and all day school (up to 10 hours, including before and after school clubs) from age 3, is widely considered a form of social progress.

School aims to meet all a child's intellectual needs. Parents are often discouraged from doing too much in the way of developmental activity (ie teaching reading) with their children, as this interferes with the socialisation process, making children too different from their peers.

There are many more examples I could give. We can discuss.

Ooh Anna I could have written that (though probably not so eloquently

Childbirth and looking after children is all about fitting into moulds and toeing the line to make life easier for the professionals, and I find myself increasingly fighting it and doing things my way, whatever the teachers, MIL etc think.

Some of the discussions I've had with French parents about what makes a good school have made me shudder.

How old are your children?

I will be moving to live in france in a few weeks time (currently in belgium). Can any of you say anything good about France for children? I have to say i disagree with the negative implication of the expression "mass institutionalisation" with regards to childcare facilities - surely its a good thing for mothers that want/need to work that there is such a comprehensive system in place to enable them to do so? I would call that progress personally. My daughter has been going to a childminder here in belgium since she was 12wks old, and I don't think she's any the worse for it, on the contrary shes a very sociable little girl, and very easily settles into new surroundings. I don't know how I would have managed to contine working without that kind of facility in place.

Families do things as families in France especially meals, which I like.

Discipline is much better in French schools, as is the general standard of education. Kids who don't reach the standard at the end of the year, repeat the year - I'm still not sure if this is good or bad: it does mean that kids aren't pushed to a level they can't cope with before they are ready, but there is some stigma attached to repeating a year. It's a system that worked for me but was not so good for db.

You'll be hard pushed to find a restaurant in France that bans children, which is great.

In my experience French mums who choose not to work are viewed as second class citizens - childcare is great, but there is much more pressure to return to work.

Frenchleave - thank you

My daughter is 2.4. I am English and her father is French and he has two sons (9, 11) from his first marriage whose mother is French. My sister's husband is also French, she has three children (boy 8, boy 5, girl 2) so I have plenty of information and conversations about cultural differences in childrearing.

On the plus side, I do think that the French are much better at providing regular balanced meals for their children and are generally far better informed about nutrition than the English. And the discipline is better in schools, as pointed out, though I do feel that schools are in a "control and instruct" rather than "educate" mode, which I find very anachronistic.

Belgianchox - I am deeply opposed to institutional care for small children. I realise that not everyone feels this way.

Roskva - actually, I find it much easier to go out for meals and snacks in England than in France. Breastfeeding in public in France is a real no-no, whereas at places like Carluccio's Café they positively welcome you with open arms. I've often had difficulties getting a table with children in France but never in England - fortunately, my daughter is pretty good and even managed two Michelin starred restaurants two nights in a row on our trip to Alsace in February.

Belgianchox - yes there are lots of positives for children here, but the approach to child rearing is very different from in the UK and some of us find it hard! The lack of Tween culture is definitely a good thing. It's gaining ground, but compared to the UK children can be children for longer.

Also the family thing - mine love belonging to a vast extended family (my family is small, DH's is enormous) and they seem to enjoy all the long family meals we go to.

Standards are indeed better at school - they get a proper old-fashioned education - but that comes with some old-fashioned techniques including rote-learning, and some strong-arm discipline. Some parents (and children) like this, some don't.

Cheap childcare means that if you want/need to work, you can. The flip side is that, as Roskva says, non-working mothers can feel like second-class citizens and there is little for them (us) to do during the day with our LOs.

PS Anna - I agree about the breastfeeding, though I found with DS it wasn't such a problem when he was newborn because breastfeeding is a bit more mainstream than it was when I had DD1 (9 years ago). But now that he is 7 months I don't feed in public any more because people stare disapprovingly and you can see them thinking "why isn't he on a bottle?" (or maybe that's just my paranoia... but still I feel uncomfortable whereas no one bats an eyelid in the UK).

frenchleave - so, what do you do during the day with your children?

french leave - totally agree with you on appalling French brainrotting TV. But I can't get anything decent on cable either here in Paris.

Another thing I don't like at all in France is the school year calendar - there are nineteen weeks of holiday and thirty-three of term time. That's a lot of holiday to occupy, and the children also get really exhausted during term time because the school day is so long - 8.30 to 4.30 in primary school, and even longer when they start secondary school at 11. And lots of schools still have Wednesday off and Saturday morning school which is another nighmare to organise - most mothers seem to take Wednesdays off work to chauffeur children to activities, and then parents don't get a lie in on Saturdays.

Personally I think school ought to be aligned as far as possible on the working week and working year. Monday to Friday, shorter days and a longer school year.

Another gripe about school - there is very little in the way of sport, art, music, drama and other non-academic subjects. This makes for a much narrower "education" than in the UK.

Yep my girls get v tired but here they have a 4-day week so they do get a full Wednesday and no Saturday school either. Most primary-age children have homework every night too, no wonder they go to bed late! My DH agrees that a 5-day week with a shorter school day and shorter holidays is much better. As it is they have 2-week Spring holidays coming up then they have 2.5 months before the summer holidays with no break - exhausting. Fatigue in school children is a popular talking point, unsurprisingly.

The lack of variety in the curriculum bothers me too, and I'm the only parent who gets cross when the PE teacher fails to show up, again. To compensate, there are tons of after-school activities on offer but this means that children aren't exposed to any music, drama or dance if they don't specifically ask to do it (and get parents to pay!).

I'm very torn about where is best to have my children educated. Here they learn far more, but in a good UK school they are more likely to learn to love learning.

Oh, and I'm on conge parental at the moment so during the day it's just me and DS. In the UK I'd take him to a mother and baby group but there is no such thing here. I see friends when I can but there are precious few groups for mums.

Apologies if we're putting anyone off life in France...

Maybe I was lucky in the school I went to, which was a state CES, but I had compulsory music, art and travaux pratiques, which included things such as cooking, sewing, technical drawing, woodwork, bricklaying (yes, bricklaying!) from 11 to 15. Drama and dance were available as optional extras at the lycee I went to.

japanise cartoons are great!

DH is French and I am English. I am definitely worried about the lack of fun whilst learning and the fatigue.
Belgian chox, I have just returned to work (but not Weds!) after two years congé parental. DD (2) has just started with a childminder. DS (4) had a different childminder for the first 21 months years before DD was born. If you are lucky enough to find the right person, then it can be enriching for the child. For those who want it, it is great to have such affordable quality childcare. I had no idea there was a stigma to not returning to work. Maybe that's a rural/city thing? Several of the mothers at our school gate have chosen not to return to work.
I agree about the lack of activities for pre-school children. Also, in the countryside, there are very few playgrounds where you can meet other stay at home parents. Because people here are less mobile with many people settling in the same village or the next one to their parents, the children's social needs are often met by family. And everyone's garden is big enough to have a swing or slide in it! It's a shame not to have communal facilities.
I have noticed that French young adults stay at home for a long time and their ties with their family remain very strong. The majority of students return home every weekend, with their washing! I'm sure part of it is because of the strong links fostered by all those long family meals but also wonder how much is to do with the fact that the long school hours followed by homework mean that school age children aren't expected to help around the house as much and don't learn the skills for living independently as early as my English peers did.

Hmmmm, all this is a bit one-sided? Where are all the French parents raising children in the UK?