Living in France, feeling I will never ever fit in here. All because of a school trip.

[Greythorne]

we live in France. DH is French.

Kids go to local school. I find I have to take a big gulp and accept the "culture clash" about tonnes of things and I am willing to do so because the kids are half French and hey, we live here, so I have to.

But tonight i feel near tears because we have just got a letter home from school to say there is a school trip for DD1 in a few weeks, just before the end of the school year. Dd1 is 5 years 5 months and in the equivalent of Year Reception.

The school is organising a trip for 5 days to a riding stables about 60 miles away. 5 days. 4 nights.

I just don't feel she is ready for this. I just feel I am not ready for this. I am just sick and tired of always feeling out if step with my community, with the school, with the people who should be my peers.

I mentioned my concerns to another mum, who just laughed it off and said, "tu sais, il faut couper le cordon un jour!" (you know, one day you have to cut the cord).

The trip is not mandatory but the teacher is putting pressure on parents to let their kids attend as it will be the culmination of a whole project about farms, horses, whatever.

I am just so demoralised. I try and I try to fit in here but this is just too much. I have read so many threads on MN about school trips / scout trips / what have you and I tend to agree with the posters who say: let them go, let them spread their wings, they will be safe.

But never have I seen a trip for 5 days at 5 years old.

I feel sick.

I will also leave you between english people to talk about how awful the french system is.

I can't be arsed to try and give another pov to be flamed down on every post.

Think as you like.

Politeness seems to have gone out of the window. What an example!

I suggest that you keep up to date with developments in your country if you wish to engage in debate about it .

This has been a very interesting discussion, thank you.

SOmething that has been rolling around in my head, and I wondered if any of you had any thoughts on this...

In the UK, certainly where we live, we have a major issue with overcoddled children who are lacking any independance, and therefore are so risk averse as to be behind in subjects such as science, where they are required to make guesses about possible outcomes. As a school, we are actively trying to get parents to detach and allow their children some level of autonomy - eg, carry in their own book bag, put their lunch in the lunchbox, coat on peg, water bottle in box etc. Its amazing how many parents cannot even allow this simple level of independance. (infants and some juniors!)

The result is poor academic response...notably in girls, mostly in subjects such as science and math.

Now I look at what has been said about french education, where children are clearly encouraged out of the nest very early, and yet from whats been said about conformity and risk taking, their children are suffering the same symptoms as our over protected children??

Its making me wonder if this is really about education, or are we maybe seeing something wider - an overanxious society?

Im intrigued.

notsure you are being ridiculously defensive. Insular even.

Immigrants to a country are often the best way to get fresh ideas. Or is everyone meant to arrive and just smile and nod?

I too have lived in France and there are many mnay things I love about French culture. However, the education system is not one of them!

I do find the French love of all things French generally charming (I do wish we Brits could be a little more positive) , but sometimes it tips into the delusional...

In some respects French children are expected to be more independent than the DC you are describing, hattifattner. Certainly parents are not allowed over the threshold of the school gate and DCs must manage their own coats/bags/books etc from an early age - ratios of staff to DCs are very low indeed in France (in comparison with international standards) so no-one is going to be around to help DCs with their stuff.

However, French school and life is highly conformist and, indeed, institutionalised. So DC learn to do things for themselves, but in a single way (the right one) and aren't so much independent as institutionalised, IMVHO.

Things I love about France: food, children's clothing, lack of slovenly behaviour in public, public transport, cosmetics, customer-supplier loyalty and trust

Things I really hate about France: the desire to deny human nature and mould society into some superficial ideal. Read Babar for more info!

Claireinmodena, I know what English schools abroad are meant for, I am not daft. I agree that it might be disruptive changing schools every 3 yrs, on the other hand the main reason is that any other system is considered well, inferior...

Greythorne: "But tonight i feel near tears... I am just sick and tired of always feeling out if step..
I am just so demoralised. I try and I try to fit in here but this is just too much.
...I feel sick."

Maybe we could spare a thought for Greythorne in all of this.

Franca I think British schools abroad have flourished because our domestic private education system is so well regarded world-wide. Lots of non- Brit ex pats use them too.
And of course we Brits have a cultural heritage of moving around the world. And a cultural heritage at being hopeless at learning the language.

Most expats who use British schools are using them temporarily. There are very few students who will see out their school career at the same British School. And to be honest, whilst they are offer a vaguley similar education, each British school is completely independent and will offer every different things.
Most ex pats who settle permenantly elsewhere use domestic schools.

French schools abroad are different. They are often used by French children or children of dual heritage who have permenatly settled in their host country but the parents want their DC to have the French educational experience, as dictated by the French auhtorities. As Bonsoir says; all raods lead to the Bac.

zzzen we've all written very sympathetic posts to the OP. I totally understand how she feels, as I have been there, it is awful to feel that you don't belong and don't fit in. At least she seems to be on friendly terms with some of the mums, even if they have different opinions. In the whole year my ds was at primary school in the uk, I can count on my fingers the time I managed to chat to other parents, and I swear that I am quite socially apt.

wordfactory, exactly. By the way, I live in Milan, there is agood number of british schools. I went to see one when we moved back from the Uk, and I thought it was not the school I wanted. Lots of Milanese people send their children there because they are rich, not because they have the slightest idea of what the english educ system is like.
And no one finds learning another language easy, trust me.

This made me laugh:

I do find the French love of all things French generally charming (I do wish we Brits could be a little more positive) , but sometimes it tips into the delusional

It used to make me smile get annoyed when Parisians would say to me "oh you must be so glad to be here - because it rains so much in London". I would smile and nod and think, "you are actually, clinically delusional".

I'm not trying to add to the tit for tat by the way - I think it's worth remembering that we laugh at and highlight the things we don't like as a way of managing the fact that we are not at home. There's a lot to love about being in France but there's a lot to sacrifice too and I think that's what Greythorne is feeling. Having a good laugh at their nuttiness and conveniently forgetting about ours is a good way to manage the emotions sometimes.

Bonsoir - "ratios of staff to DCs are very low indeed in France (in comparison with international standards)"

A simple internet search shows staff pupil ratios in France are not very low indeed. They are not even low. I can post the link if you wish.

If you want to engage in a debate you need to do more than regurgitate verbatim the prejudices and hearsay of a select group of writers sympathetic to your ideas.

I think the French regard for their own nation and culture is often very positive. Certainly their economy benefits from their buying French food, cars, etc and of course from spending their leisure time in France.
I think also, a certain level of national pride is healthy.

Here in the UK we have become too negative about our own culture. This is one of the good things about living away from the UK for a while. You can start to see that life in the UK has many benefits.

But yes, ther eis s tipping point, when self regard becomes daft. When I lived in France I was often asked if I was very glad, as a writer to be somewhere where culture was valued. As if London were some literary backwater

LeBFG - ratios of teachers to pupils in the French classroom are very low indeed. However, because French teachers' working hours are also very low, that means that there are more teachers per pupil within the system than in other countries (hence its huge expense).

Bonsoir I'm afraid that doesnt make sense. In a classroom at any given time is the ratio of teacher to pupil lower or higher than the UK ?

It makes perfect sense. At any given time, French teachers have more pupils in their classroom than in other European countries.

However, if you look at gross figures for the ratio of teachers:pupils, it looks as if the French have more teachers per pupil than in other countries.

The difference lies in the hours worked per teacher.

I understand what Bonsoir is saying, there are lots of teachers, but they do short hrs, so they don't work together at the same times. I think...

Odd that. Having taught in France and UK, the hours in front of kids were the same. The exception being longer hols and the Wed half day - but this doesn't change the ratio. The ratios can be checked on the UNISCO website btw and are in line with the average for Europe and USA.

Purely anecdotely, I frequently taught 30+ in classes in the UK. Where this occurred in the school in France, measures were put in place to split the group with a TA.

I can't believe I'm posting support the cause of french ed policy! But I love France, with or without it's schools - the people I've met are open, enjoy lively debate and fall so far outside the DM-sterotype it is shocking...they are doing well despite their early days experiences imo.

Hours in front of pupils work out roughly the same in French maternelle and primaire as in the UK, I think. In collège and lycée, certifiés teach 18hrs/wk, agrégés 15hrs/wk, which is less - to my knowledge - than a UK teacher.

I once taught 6 lycée classes, all of which had 35 pupils in.

i will check that website, then, as I have no idea about the ratio here in Italy.
meanwhile I am noww very temped to send dc to a french summer camp for the whole summer ;-D

W l?Europe!

"I find I have to take a big gulp and accept the "culture clash" about tonnes of things" - Greythorne I feel your pain. My dcs have been in French schools - in Paris, Berlin and now London - all their lives (well since 2-and-a-half). I love France, I love the French, but anyone who labours under the illusion that as our nearest neighbours they are like us is in for a big shock. I never dare complain about anything at the dcs' schools for fear of being told (possibly with some justification) that if I don't like it I should move them to the English system. What I have come to realise though is this - there are good and points about both systems (and indeed both cultures). My approach is to embrace the good points and remind myself (privately) that the bad bits don't matter because the essential Englishness of my dcs will ultimately override this. I certainly would never crow about this to my French friends, but just knowing it helps me to bite my tongue when necessary. By way of reassurance I would say there are many marvelous things about the French system and my dcs are positively thriving in it - not least because they know no other way.
On the very specific subject of the trip itself I would say that my dd had a five day classe verte at the age of six. I harboured all the misgivings that you have - she had never even spent a night away from home with her grandparents at that point. Unlike your dd she did want to go with the rest of her class and with a heavy heart I agreed. To this day she says that those five days were the best of her life - she had a fabulous time, came to no harm and really benefited from the experience. The trip was brilliantly organised by the French staff and I have nothing but praise for them.
I'm not saying you should let your dd go - especially if she has misgivings - just that it will be a great opportunity for some those children.

Auld : my experience is only that, my experience. Class sizes vary in the UK too - the class sizes in a UK grammar I did a placement in were smaller than the comp down the road I went on to teach in. And as far as statistics go, there are lies, damn lies and statistics! I took over a full time teacher post (Catholic college/lycee) and the hours worked out at 20 a week. I think in the UK I had a 20 hour week, but I had negotiated a free or two. But then the school weeks differ. Besides, we are discussing pupil teacher ratios and they aren't THAT different. I was making this point because Bonsoir has it in for the french ed system, which is fine, but not when it comes to exaggerating the situation.

Pupil/teacher ratios and how many hours a teacher work have nothing to do with each other.

In the UK most primary school teachers have to work full time as most schools don't allow job share. In state schools most classes are 30 kids, during the year this can increase to 34 for Key Stage 1 (reception, year 1 and 2). For Key Stage 2, classes can be significantly bigger, e.g. 35 pupils, sometimes more depending on how many chairs you can fit into the classroom basically.

In the Netherlands virtually all primary school teachers work part-time. So most kids have two or even three teachers, e.g. Miss A on Mon and Tue, Miss B on Wed morning and Thu and Miss C on Friday or whatever arrangement they have made. This does not harm the children's education. Happy teachers are worth their weight in gold IMO. Better than grumpy, overstretched teachers juggling a full-time job and looking after their own kids often encountered in the UK.

hattifattner, you seem to have been ignored in the scrap.

From what I can tell from my own (limited, I only have 2 dc and my eldest is 5) experience, although French children are encouraged to separate from their parents in a fairly proactive manner from an early age, they are not encouraged to be independent in so far as that involves any kind of behaviour that an adult might in any way find objectionable.

I have seen parents telling their 6-7 year olds 'tu vas te faire mal' (you will hurt yourself) when they were climbing on exactly the same climbing frame my 3yo had happily climbed up.

In fact random adults at places will constantly tell my children 'tu vas te faire mal' when they are doing really quite innocuous things - just not things that those particular adults decide they should be doing!

It is consistent with the possibility that the teachers are handling large numbers of children with limited staff (I have no idea about relative staff ratios in the various systems btw) as encouraging independent 'risky' behaviour makes a large group harder to handle by a small number of adults.

Or it may just be a culture of general risk aversion. I have had people tell ME 'attention vous allez vous faire mal' for picking up a cement bag fgs!

I have also had people stop and gasp (and eventually clap ) when I was working on a roof...which was less than 10 feet off the ground and with a shallow slope! They really were waiting with bated breath to see whether I would fall off.

My guess with regard to your question, fwiw, is that the issue is not whether or not children are separated from the parents or not, it is whether they are encouraged to make their own decisions on matters and those decisions are respected by the adults even if the adults do not completely agree.

I doubt there are many (if any) educational systems in the world which deliver that!