Living in France, feeling I will never ever fit in here. All because of a school trip.

[Greythorne]

we live in France. DH is French.

Kids go to local school. I find I have to take a big gulp and accept the "culture clash" about tonnes of things and I am willing to do so because the kids are half French and hey, we live here, so I have to.

But tonight i feel near tears because we have just got a letter home from school to say there is a school trip for DD1 in a few weeks, just before the end of the school year. Dd1 is 5 years 5 months and in the equivalent of Year Reception.

The school is organising a trip for 5 days to a riding stables about 60 miles away. 5 days. 4 nights.

I just don't feel she is ready for this. I just feel I am not ready for this. I am just sick and tired of always feeling out if step with my community, with the school, with the people who should be my peers.

I mentioned my concerns to another mum, who just laughed it off and said, "tu sais, il faut couper le cordon un jour!" (you know, one day you have to cut the cord).

The trip is not mandatory but the teacher is putting pressure on parents to let their kids attend as it will be the culmination of a whole project about farms, horses, whatever.

I am just so demoralised. I try and I try to fit in here but this is just too much. I have read so many threads on MN about school trips / scout trips / what have you and I tend to agree with the posters who say: let them go, let them spread their wings, they will be safe.

But never have I seen a trip for 5 days at 5 years old.

I feel sick.

I also agree that the nature of the child is a big factor in this. My 5 yo is anxious about going to a playdate at other people's houses without me but I know others in his class (mostly with older siblings) are having sleepovers. My DS would be pretty traumatised about a 5 day stay away and I couldnt do it ... but I also know that I am going to have to start gently pushing him out the nest a bit too (albeit only to playdates at this stage!).

Greythorne hugs to you and don't be pressurised into letting your DD go on the trip if you don't feel it's right, as that will just make you feel worse. What part of France do you live in? Are there any other Brits around? I would suggest not trying to fit in so much. Accept that you are not French and be yourself...bon courage!

" "tu sais, il faut couper le cordon un jour!"

Indeed, 'un jour' but not when she's only 5! I don't blame you at all.

Well there aren't many super confident adults around pretty much anywhere, and this is not the point.
Also, it shouldn't be about parents anxieties either, we should try to overcome them for the sake of our children, if a trip away can benefit them.
The point is the child. If the child is not ready, there is no need to push him/her.

French adults are a lot more anxious about trying new things than British adults (huge generalisation, but not without plenty of experience). I am not at all convinced that the French early years model "works". Honestly, Greythorne, if you don't want DD to go (and she isn't clamouring to go either), don't send her. Just say that you have a very different parenting model to that of the school that doesn't encourage early forced separations.

Are they? And if that's true, how is it related to residential trips at a young age.
There is no need to be so negative and mention "forced" separations, this is not a compulsory trip, and it should be an occasion for the children to be happy. If the parent deems his/her child won't benefit from this experience, then it is a personal choice.
There is no need to pour shite on a whole country's educational system. Even if I know you despise it Bonspir.

Franca - I don't know why you are being so vociferous about a system and country that you don't know much about. IME, parents have their arms twisted (big time) to ensure the children go on the trips and they are not always very successful. Hence a lot of anxiety about separations.

"most people don't really know ME. Just the version of me that survives the translation"

Me too surrounded, this is exactly how I feel! Whilst I make every effort to integrate, my few British friends are an absolute lifeline....

OP there may be French mothers feeling exactly the same way as you - when you're feeling vulnerable, its easy to think that you're the only one who thinks what you think, and its BECAUSE you are English. That may not be the case (although I know how you feel).

I am not vociferous, I just Find the constant France/europe/germany bashing on Mn quite depressing.
I wonder how you can relate the lack of self confidence of French adults to going away for 5 days at 5. Were this kind of trips popular inFrance in the 60s too? Cause here in Northern Italy they are a thing of the last 10 yrs.

There is just no need in getting all superior because "french parents force their children to on residential trips", because this is what it sounds from yours and other posters posts.

This is what the thread is about, Franca.

No, it is about giving the OP the confidence to stick to her instincts despite her new country's social more, not about discussing the French people lack of self confidence or uber stigmatizing their (just as valid) choice to support residential trips, imho.

Mores

This happened to us one term after we had moved back to France from the UK after 3 years away and DD was still settling in and re-learning French. She was 6 but nowhere near ready or willing to go on a week-long skiing trip (incl a long long coach journey).

Despite the circumstances, her teacher made a fuss, she said she'd miss out, she'd be out of step with the group when they got back etc etc. But I stood firm because DD didn't want to go. Instead I took her back to visit family in the UK for a week. It was fine in the end, DD wasn't a social outcast.

DS is your DD's age now and no way would he be ready to go on such a trip. I was browsing for summer camps for DD earlier and saw 2-week camps for children aged 4-6! Insane.

Don't be bullied. Plan something nice for your DD and send her on trips when she's ready.

The problem is, Franca, that French people can be incredibly vicious in their reaction to a parenting style that is different from theirs - I have had scorn poured on me from all fronts for my parenting choices, from breastfeeding to not sending my ds to maternelle aged 2.

I have always kept my views on others' parenting to myself, whatever they were, but have rarely encountered the same courtesy.

They do keep saying things like 'your dc will be this and that and the other when they grow up if you don't do x, y or z'.

Which is why as an outsider you look around you and say 'really? and what you are doing is producing exactly what wonderful results? 'cause I'm not seeing them....'

I think 'vicious' is a bit OTT discrete. I, indeed, have had the comments about bfing, about picking up DS too much, rocking DS too much??!!. Although sometimes infuriating at the time, I later just reason that these people are commenting, pointing out how they did things differently. Possibly some had other motivations, but I frankly think they were just trying to be helpful.

btw, where we are, the UK ex-pats are really pleased with the younger-years' school system. We live in rural france where class sizes are tiny. It's only when the kids get to college/lycee/uni that they frequently opt out and are sent back to the UK.

I think parents in the UK attack other parents just as viciously!

As i said upthread, my Mum has been here 40 years but still has people attributing behaviour etc to her nationality. I am amazed that a whole nationality can be dismissed by people so easily.

All the books really annoy me too (why french women are thin, why french kids eat anything) because it is always based on a subsection of the population.

Discrete, Bonsoir is right I don't much about the French, so I won't try to "defend" French parents anymore, even if I don't think that offering residential trips to 5 yrs old is "insane", if the child ( and the parents) is ready.

As I said, I decided, when we lived in the uk to send my children to nursery, which was met, in some circumstances, with (polite) disapproval. I have to add I'd have preferred direct criticism, which at least allows you to discuss...

Your post gave me some food for thought Darrowby. I do think we're lucky to be sble to have lots of information, choices and stimuli for our kids and our child rearing. I have adopted and embraced some of the Swedish ideas and have breathed sighs of relief that we don't live in the UK on many occasions. It has been hugely beneficial for my family to have done this. However, in our family as in most cases I suspect, it has been a huge effort to do so, with that effort coming mostly from the mum.

What is particularly tough is when I choose to do s'thing swedish-style and my DM or friends back home pass comment/judgement and I'm obliged to defend myself.

Maybe I'm oversensitive, as ds1 was very sick as a baby and I was constantly told by everyone that it was basically my fault for bfing him and having a home birth, which it really wasn't.

There is definitely a thing about continentals preferring the 'direct' approach and Brits thinking 'if you can't think of something nice to say....'. I put that down to culture clash.

I should probably point out at this stage that I'm not really British born and bred, and there are many things about people in the UK that mystify me too, but I do feel 'more' British than anything else. Still, always an outsider, wherever I go, so can really empathise with that feeling....

discrete - I know what you mean about being an outsider everywhere.

My sister was attacked (verbally) by a group of Mums because she dared to vaccinate her children and send them to nursery because she dared to go back to work. They were most definitely not of the 'if you can't say something nice.....'!

Discrete, people who told you it was your fault because of the breastfeeding and home birth were ignorant. Sadly, you find ignorant people pretty much everywhere ( though I appreciate that breastfeeding doesn't seem that popular in France)

Well in all culture you have some good sides and bad sides.

TBH I am very annoyed with people like Bonsoir who think it's OK to destroy the french on the ground that they can never do anything right. 'Oh and look at them as adults, they are all anxious people who don't like trying new things'.

This would be just laughable if it wasn't coming from someone who is intelligent and knowledgeable.

Now french people hearing that would say and quite rightly imho, that if you really think the country is so atrocious, then you shouldn't be living there. And that you are more than welcome to go back to your country as France isn't your home country.

I am a bit at loss as to why it is OK to be so dismissive of the french (in this case) way of doing things when if I was going on and on about how horrible the british are, how they only seem to be able to talk about the weather and whatever make the english english, I would probably (and rightly) get a very hard time.

I completely agree with DarrowbyEightFive. In any culture, there are some good bits and some bad bits. It's really up to you as an adult to make concious choices about what works for you.

The fitting in though is a totally different issue. And personally, I still haven't managed to understand the english (or I think I have only to realize one or two years down the line that I actually haven't).

"I wonder how you can relate the lack of self confidence of French adults to going away for 5 days at 5"

Lack of confidence, reluctance to step outside the box or to speak out, great need to conform, curiously low individual drive and ambition. Those of us who live in France can tell you that these are general characteristics of the population here (not everyone, but on average). Also, those of us who have children in the French education system can tell you that it is largely responsible for all of the above.

Forced separation from primary carers at ridiculously early ages is only a small part of it.

Lack of confidence, reluctance to step outside the box or to speak out, great need to conform, curiously low individual drive and ambition. Those of us who live in France can tell you that these are general characteristics of the population here.

lol, interesting because, as french person, I can't quite see that. Would you say it's the same with germans too, seen that they have a similar view on getting children independent at an early age?

"NotSureICanCarryOn - "Well you have to remember that it is OK to send a 4yo on 'colonies de vacances' (ie summer camp) for 2 weeks"

I can only remember what I already know, and I know no such thing as "it is OK to send a 4 year old to summer camp for two weeks". Are you crazy?

DD and all her friends have been through French maternelle and none of them has been told to go on a 2 week holiday away from their parents. I know of 5 year olds offered a 5 day trip, which was cancelled because half of the class wouldn't go.