Living in France, feeling I will never ever fit in here. All because of a school trip.

[Greythorne]

we live in France. DH is French.

Kids go to local school. I find I have to take a big gulp and accept the "culture clash" about tonnes of things and I am willing to do so because the kids are half French and hey, we live here, so I have to.

But tonight i feel near tears because we have just got a letter home from school to say there is a school trip for DD1 in a few weeks, just before the end of the school year. Dd1 is 5 years 5 months and in the equivalent of Year Reception.

The school is organising a trip for 5 days to a riding stables about 60 miles away. 5 days. 4 nights.

I just don't feel she is ready for this. I just feel I am not ready for this. I am just sick and tired of always feeling out if step with my community, with the school, with the people who should be my peers.

I mentioned my concerns to another mum, who just laughed it off and said, "tu sais, il faut couper le cordon un jour!" (you know, one day you have to cut the cord).

The trip is not mandatory but the teacher is putting pressure on parents to let their kids attend as it will be the culmination of a whole project about farms, horses, whatever.

I am just so demoralised. I try and I try to fit in here but this is just too much. I have read so many threads on MN about school trips / scout trips / what have you and I tend to agree with the posters who say: let them go, let them spread their wings, they will be safe.

But never have I seen a trip for 5 days at 5 years old.

I feel sick.

I would just follow your instincts. They are getting plenty of French culture and there are plenty of other times she can go away later. Just smile and say that in England we don't do trips so young.
I have been amazed in France at just little things-like a ski class of 3 year olds just been fed onto chair lifts so that as an adult I get a little tot to look after and get off. They don't bat an eye, but I don't think that my DCs could have coped at 3yrs.

I think you need to source out some new friends. My french ain't that great, but I crack jokes...my friends think I'm funny and value me because I'm english (and for just being me too). The english are known for their quirky humour and they almost expect it. I've met some bloody dour french too though....just avoid.

Also, I thought my parenting was being criticised left and right (it WAS) but then met some uni friends of a friend, then realised that many educated french were doing the same as me. Suddenly, I realised that, no I would never blend in seamlessly into the French tapistry no matter how long I lived here, but that also, I really didn't want to. Keep your identity, the French you meet will really benefit from having the odd persepective you give, and respect you for holding onto it too. Perhaps loads of other mothers hate sending their kids off too young as well - show them they don't have to always tow the line!

Yes trust your instinct and stick to your guns. If the trip does go ahead would it be possible to go for part of it and stay nearby so that your DD can take part in some of the activities?

I wouldn't advise staying nearby-it is the worst of both. If you don't want to send her then don't.

grey If it can reassure you I am french, born and bred, I have never ever fitted in. It is even worse now that DH is british and that I have been an expat for 15 years, with both DDs born & bred in different countries.

You know your children, trust your instincts, and do what is right for your family. It is OK to be different!

it doesn't matter if you're in France, Dubai or the UK village next door. You're the MOTHER. You decide.

(I would never let DS in a trip like that. And I have the last word. DH has a say on things, and no one else)

Just say no! I agree with you - wayy too young for too long. HUgs to you.

I would worry myself sick if my child went away at that age. But even having said that I would consider letting her go if she really wants to and all the rest of the class is going and there are arrangements in place for very homesick kids to be picked up.

Not sure this is an entirely cultural thing. Because in this country there is a huge difference of opinion between what people think is acceptable for children of certain ages. I know people who say I'd never let my kids do such and such and others who might say yes what's wrong with that.

Greythorne for how long have you been loving there?

I am french and living in the UK and I can completely understand where you are coming from, except it's the other way around. It still makes 'mistakes' and say things that people are offended by. I still find that some stuff are just completely unreasonable (to me but not to the average british person).

Suddenly, I realised that, no I would never blend in seamlessly into the French tapistry no matter how long I lived here, but that also, I really didn't want to.
Agree with that. I think there is so much 'integrating' you can do. You should try and behave in a way that is acceptable by the rules of where you live. But you should also be able to stay true to yourself.
For me it means that I have changed the way I do things in some areas and have stuck to my guns in other areas.

What I wouldn't do is to say that you don't allow your dd to go to the school trip because 'in england we don't do tripos so young'. Explain that you are not comfortable about it or that you don't think she is ready for it (btw the fact they are pushing it makes me think that other french parents are perhaps not so happy about it). But don't bring the fact you are not french into it. That will not go down well.

I hope I'm not stating the bleeding obvious here, do ignore me if I am. I am English, living in England. But I don't fit in with everyone here, only a minority really. I don't do Facebook, watch the x factor, get drunk, gossip - oh it's hard to explain. I just mean - you will only ever fit in with a small number of the people around you, wherever you are and whatever nationality they are. All the French won't be the same any more than all the English are. And look at all the threads on here started by English people moaning about the English education system!

French are very big on sending children off on long trips. We were skiing last February when I took the ski lift with a 7 yr old girl who told me she was on a 2 week skiing camp. Her parents won't hear from her until she comes back And there I was, following DD's (7) class around because they had only 1adult per group of 12 and nobody to pick up kids who fall behind!

Well you have to remember that it is OK to send a 4yo on 'colonies de vacances' (ie summer camp) for 2 weeks.
And I know quite a few children that are going away for 4 weeks in one go in camps again from the age of 7 or 8yo.

This is acceptable and people who do that would probably also say that they do have the choice ie they are working and it's the sort of childcare that is available during hols.

Bletchley you are right up to certain extend. But not fitting in within your home country isn't the same thing than not fitting in in a foreign country. Mainly because in one case, you can find a small group of people you are comfortable with whereas you might never find that group in a foreign country. I know for example that my friends are all either foreigners, people who have lived abroad for quite a while or people who have a very different outlook because their parents have lived abroad/come from abroad. Nearly 20 years on, I still don't fit in with 'british people'. Even if it doesn't stop me from working, having my own business, meeting clients, paying taxes etc.... (so on the surface I am fully a integrated member of the society)

OP, I feel for you, as it is hard to live in a different country, I have been there, I know.

I am Italian, I've been back here for 4 yrs now. Here in Milan children your dd's age are often offered the chance of a similar residential trip. The majority of parents are happy to send their children, and the general consensus is that it is a lovely experience for the children.
But there is a number of parents who choose to keep their children home for the same reasons as yours, and no one really bats an eyelid.

What I am trying to say is that sometimes when we live in a different country we feel the need to conform to different mores, more than we do in our country of origin.

DS is 11 and just had 4 nights away. TBH it was soon enough.

Maybe concentrate on developing confidence and a thick skin rather than trying to accept all the Frency ways. Your child - your choices at such a young age.

Btw OP, I lived in the Uk for 8 yrs and never felt I never really fit in.
I consider myself to be quite socially apt, but it was hard making friends (the very few I got are wonderful though).
Plus, I happily ferried my dc to nursery (a must here in Milan) which was frowned upon instead...

Never felt i really fit in

See, I can't see nothing outragious about a 5 days residential trip for 5 yrs old, not all 5 yrs old are the same! Some ŵouldn't be ready, others would!

Your DD is very little indeed for a five day/four night school trip. FWIW, my DD had her first school trip this year, in 10ème/CE1 (Y3 equivalent), Mon-Fri, and it was fine - but she was 7.4, which is a world away from 5.5.

My DD is going on her first trip away, she is 10 and i am letting her go but anxious. No I wouldn't let a 5 year old go away overnight for 5 days.

I am a dual national (Brit/American). I have always felt more british in America and more American in Britain. It is the nature of the beast.

IMO it is a good thing that you don't want to give up all your culture to fit in there. Especially as you have children who are half-british. My husband and I here try to have a british house at home because they are surrounded by American culture but this is the only place they really experience British culture.

You aren't odd, you are unique and interesting and if the French mums can't see that then they can 'barre-toi'

(and FWIW my 11yo is at his first sleep away camp right now. It is three days and about 5 miles away. He was excited to go and I was excited for him. There is no fucking way I would have sent him at five.)

It all depends on your child, but DD's old Kindergarten did a trip including 4 nights away at a farm type place for the children in the last year of Kindergarten - dd was only just 5, but I did let her go, and she had a fantastic time, and she and all her classmates still talk about it.

The Kindergarten feeds into a school across the road and only the occassional child joins the school from a Montessori or Forest Kindergarten, most of the school were at KiGa together and most went on the trip - I didn't want DD to be the only one without the shared experience.

I worried about the trip every moment she was gone, but it helped knowing the KiGa booked the whole place out - that is how the place works, residential trips for KiGas and primary schools, never any other visitors. In fact I worried more about the coach trip in all honesty than anything else. They were an hour's drive away so I knew I could go and get her if I was called, which helped a lot too, as did the fact the KiGa has been running the same trip for years and years every year, and a lot of the staff have been every time.

DD was the youngest on the trip, as she is the youngest in her year, but although she said she was going to miss me before hand she never said she didn't want to go, and I am glad she did.

We are in Germany, DH German, kids in local Kindergarten, DD was then the only child who wasn't 100% German (in fact non Bavarians are rare as we are in the countryside).

DS1 will go on the same trip when his time comes, though he'll be 6...

Just my experience to throw in the mix... I don't feel I belong here either, but the kids do, and in the end that is what the trip is about, not us mums...

Mmm, this is a tricky one. Don't flame me, but I'd like to offer a different perspective. On the one hand it generally seems best to follow the 'trust your instincts' line. But on the other hand, I think these 'instincts' have got wildly out of the control in the last 20 years in the UK and are now firmly heading towards outright collective neuroticism. France seems to be right at the opposite pole of laissez faire parenting and encouraging independence, so it's inevitable there will be a clash somewhere. And I think ALWAYS following your English instincts are not going to help with your integration, or with your DC's identity as half French. I've lived in Germany for the last 20 years - essentially half my life - and have come to realise that there is no such thing as 'the right cultural parenting style' - sometimes the German style suits me better, sometimes I feel more English. What I don't do is outright reject one style simply BECAUSE it's German.

And as far as children's independence is concerned, I feel a right piggy in the middle. The traditional German line is that all children should go to school by themselves from year 1 onwards - that means aged 6. Not abiding by this 'rule' and taking your kids to school is widely seen as 'bad parenting'. This is clearly potty, especially in a large city with fast traffic, and in fact we still take DD2 to school at 10 although she comes home herself in the afternoon when there's less time pressure and rush-hour traffic. But the widespread English belief, which boils down to 'children should not be alone at all until 11' at least seems equally silly to me. There must be something in between the two extremes.

And there seem to be a lot of parents in the UK claiming their children are not ready for A, B, or C at a certain age, although most children from other cultures are quite happy to take that step at that age. This can only be down to one of two things. Either British children are intrinsically more incompetent/slow to develop on average than those in other countries, or a certain percentage of parents (obviously not all - some children do genuinely need more time) are actually holding their offspring back by telling them that A, B, or C is not possible (effectively setting them up for a self-fulfilling prophecy). I don't believe the former, so there is quite possibly a degree of the latter. In fact, there seems to be a degree of competitive parenting about who can be the most 'devoted' and 'best' parent, as defined by not letting your child achieve much in the way of independence at all. Sometimes it's just better to encourage your DC to do something, to tell them, 'I believe in you, you can manage this'. This element of 'taking pride in overprotection' is simply not present in most other European countries - Britain and Ireland are certainly something of an exception.

One final thing about school trips - I don't know about France, but in Germany they are seen as compulsory part of the school timetable because they contribute to social development and give the class a collective experience which is deemed educational. In fact, so much so that if parents can prove they can't afford a school trip (because on benefits or whatever) the trip will be paid by the local authority. In Britain it seems to be more of a voluntary 'go or don't go, whatever, but if you can't afford it, bad luck'. This means if you as a parent don't let your DC go on a trip in Germany, you really are setting them up as an outsider. Is it any different in France?

Oh, and DD1 went on her first trip with her nursery when she was 4, and they were away for 5 days. It was no problem at all! Of course we parents found it more difficult to handle than the kids, but we learned to overcome our instinct to overprotect. Now if a whole group of nursery 4yo had a great time away from their parents in Germany for a few days, why are there so many British kids who would not enjoy the same experience?

Sorry you're feeling down about being different.

We've not had any trips like this proposed at either of the schools DCs have attended. Eldest is now in CM1.

I asked some of the parents I get on with about this issue and none of them would be comfortable with it although some of them will happily send their children off to stay with family at a young age. I feel the same way. I think it is different with family.

Maybe you picked the wrong mum to mention it to and they are not all as 'detached' as the French stereotype?

What are the other things you have to take a gulp about and accept?

The thing I find most difficult is kids staying up late when doing things with DHs side of the family. DD and I are both horrible when tired.

Darrow, I agree with your post, especially the taking pride in overprotection thing .
However, I really think the OP must make her choices regardless of the pressures of other parents' cultural habits. As I said earlier, imo it is not unreasonable to organise a trip for 5 yrs old, but at that age there are children who are ready to go away without relatives, and others who aren't.

I know mine were apprehensive about sleeping without us or the grandparents at 5, so I would have had to think deeply about sending them.

discrete I am British but used to live in France too. This is priceless:

The reality is that when you look around you in France you do not see an enormous number of super confident, well adapted adults with no issues whatsoever.