DD wants to “pass” as male at sixth form - how to handle this?

[speckledgreenfrogs]

Hey everyone, made a throwaway account for this.
For simplicity, I’ll be using sex based pronouns when talking about my DC, forgive me if I word anything wrong here.

So about 2 years ago, my daughter (14 at the time) came out to our family as trans. We (me and DH) asked her what exactly that meant to her, and she said she’d like to be called a new male name and be use male pronouns, DH and DS11 bless them, have abided by this but for me as her mother it’s not that easy, I remember the day we found out we were having a girl, I was so happy, especially because I don’t have any sisters, only 2 brothers (which of course I wouldn’t change for the world, but it would have been nice to have a sister) and the memories of me and DH picking her name and middle names, honestly these memories almost make me cry now. (After many times of DD screaming she hates her birth names, and saying DS “doesn’t realise how lucky he is” (I was NOT happy with that comment at all, what the hell???)

Apologies if this is coming off as a rant, I don’t know what to do. Apologies again if this is the wrong place to post this.

Anyway, she’s due to start sixth form in September, managed to snag a place at this really great private sixth form (which is costing an arm and a leg to afford 😅 )(not trying to sound like a twat by saying that it’s private, will edit it that out if that’s a problem) However, we have one (not) tiny issue.

I believe her aim is to join this new 6th form and pose as male (again, forgive me for my language if that’s rude) As she turned 16 earlier this year, she was able to get her name legally changed.

To put it bluntly, how fucked are we? I mean it’s going to come out eventually isn’t it? And I know it’ll be sooner than later. My fear isn’t that she’ll get bullied/made fun of/won’t be respected, more of that she’ll get “outed”/her birth sex will be noticeable, despite her short haircut, and masculine suits (they have to wear smart/business clothing).

She refuses for us to have any communication with the school to let them know, even though we’ve explained to her (many times) that it would be so much better for her if we did.

Even though I honestly am struggling with her transition, I still (and will always) love her more than life itself, and me and DH (who has also expressed his concerns about this) don’t want her to be upset/be in for a “big shock” when it all goes to shit (pardon my language).

She’s also trying to convince DH to get her passport changed? Please tell me you need both parent’s consent for that? I will never say yes to that and she knows it.

Thanks in advance everyone, hope you’re all having a great Sunday. ❤️

This all has a strong air of “I am feel uncomfortable when we are not about me?” about it, as the young people say…

This thread is about the OP’s child, not you and your partner. There is no need for you to feel personally invested in the OP’s situation. (Is it appropriate to post someone’s identifiable photo on an open internet forum? I hope your partner knows; I’d be pretty uncomfortable if my partner was posting my photo online, no matter what I was arguing about.)

But people born with female bodies are not male. By definition. She can ‘identify’ however she likes but unfortunately it doesn’t change reality. She is female.

It is physically impossible to be ‘born in the wrong body’. We are our bodies. We can’t have a female heart in a male body, we can’t have a male kidney in a female body. We also can’t have a male brain in a female body.

@speckledgreenfrogs you and DH really need to get on the same page here! It different found like you are necessarily divided on this but your daughter should not be able to go to your DH to get the ‘easy answer’ which always puts you as the bad guy. I’d be going fucking nuts at DH if he was doing this with one of our kids!

I don’t think I’ve ever really seen an anti trans comments at all. Most comments are generally dress as you wish, present yourself as you wish, you can even change your name if you wish but you can’t change sex. Sex based rights (including sex based pronouns) trump a person’s own opinion of their gender. This is for predominately fairness and safety reasons but also just because sex based rights matter regardless . Doesn’t mean people think trans people don’t exist - they just don’t become something they aren’t just because they say so. That is not anti trans unless you take the view you can physically change sex which isn’t possible.

This is a girl saying she's male. For whatever reason, she's decided she wants to be a boy, which is obviously impossible because people can't change sex. She is not male.

Whatever she wants to do with her life, she can do as a girl/woman. She doesn't have to pretend to be a boy.

Even if she uses drugs and cosmetic surgery later on, once she is an adult, to make herself look like a man, she will still not be male.

It must be very tough. The two more liberal sixth forms DS has offers from are clear this is fine and the DC speaks to them, not you.

Your resistance is going to make it worse, I feel. I’d be v upset but you’re going to have to deal with that separately. They might change their mind.

They call it “main character syndrome” 😀

Hilarious. There is no AI, filters , photoshop or ‘good lighting ‘ . This is how he looks all day, every day. You seem desperate to convince yourself you’re right despite evidence to the contrary .

Not a man.

See, my biggest fear would be that my child - too young to get a tatoo legally - might want me to support them in a decision influenced by social contagion and backed by the medical industry and ideologists (and pushed by the now-debunked suicide threat)

Based on no scientific data.

That would leave them:
Mutilated (mastectomy/castration)
Incontinent
Unable to orgasm
With wounds requiring constant maintenance
On drugs for life
In a wheelchair in their 20s
Dead in their 30s from strokes and other observed medical complications in women who take testosterone
Still unhappy

But I'm just a bigot.

Typo edits.

Im a bit confused about your point. How you present yourself has nothing to do with your sex.

Eh? Schools aren’t usually doing surgery so doubt they will have anything to do with changing anyone, never mind a sixth former. Unlikely to need a defib either but if they did I doubt anyone will be standing around discussing gender, hopefully they will be getting on saving a life.

That’s not to say I don’t think the OP is wrong to want the school to know the biological sex but it all this fuss about people minding about it is just a lot of hand wringing.

But he only looks “male” on a superficial glance, or if one doesn’t look too long at his body shape/chest etc.

Why does being trans have to involve a belief that one “really is” the other sex? Isn’t it enough to just live as if this was the case rather than having to pretend it’s really true?

Gender ideologists seem to both hate biological sex yet venerate it at the same time. It’s no-one else’s fault that someone wishes they were different. A lot of the fervent anger seems to be nothing more than projecting an internal conflict onto other people, as if everyone else is somehow responsible for the failure to be born the other sex. Even if you could make everyone else in the world agree to pretend still doesn’t rewrite reality.

For what it’s worth, I have three trans-women friends I’ve known since I was a child and none of them disagree with my perspective that they, as trans-women, are a subset of men not women. I feel that non-trans people trying to stand-up for trans-rights are the bigger fools that just antagonise the general populace and do more harm than good.

But they are still your child and you’ll still love them and support them whatever they are going through. No point in fighting them about how they wish to present themselves unless you want to push them away.

And when they want irreversible medical interventions as a minor? No point in denying it until they get older?

Either way is a toss of the coin, in terms of whether they thank you or hate you for it. But either way, as a parent you'll have done your duty in preventing unnecessary medicalisation of their healthy body.

You seem to be translating a general comment on sexuality (which includes heterosexuality btw) into a recommendation about ‘masc lesbians’. I’m not sure what you hope to achieve with that other than shoehorning your point on ‘identity’ into that.

You must not be familiar with the Tavistock clinic which famously had a number clinicians (seeing young people with gender dysphoria) who commented that there soon would be no lesbians left. ‘Transing away the gay was another phrase that summed this up. Maybe you don’t know many trans people but certainly several I know and many of the high profile ones are same sex attracted but prefer the appearance of a ‘straight’ relationship given by claiming to be the opposite sex.

I guess you may know more of the middle aged men who say they are women as many of those are heterosexual and so call themselves lesbians?

Identity ideology causes harm to vulnerable girls and boys by encouraging them to think that taking harmful drugs and hormones and changing their appearance is a long term solution to their distress. The stats show that this is not the case. Mental health outcomes post medical ‘transition’ are worse.

OPs daughter is at risk of harm as she may be taking testosterone (damaging to her bone development, fertility, causes vaginal atrophy, increased risk of heart disease and stroke), she may be using binders which will damage her beast tissue and she appears to wish to take action that will put her at risk of sexual assault or rape and may end up with her facing a charge of rape by deception if she embarks on a sexual relationship while concealing her sex.

There are plenty of people making comments on here that are ignorant. Through lack of education and lack of personal experience . The photo was of course in response to a comment that suggested being a butch lesbian was an appropriate consolation prize for not being accepted as trans . The two are not the same . The person I was responding to stated that trans men are female . My point is that that person would NEVER accept my partner as female. I have never met a single person who didn’t consider my partner to be a man for him to live life as a woman would be ridiculous .
So many anti trans people want to imagine that everyone trans is some sexually predatory obvious male in a wig and bad make up who sneaks around women’s toilets trying to assault their teenage daughters .
Unfortunately, the people with no knowledge and no personal experience are the ones who shout the loudest especially when they can hide behind a screen .
Of course my partner knows I’ve posted the photo 😆

🤣🤣🤣 I know many trans people (see my previous post ) and none of them are the fantasy media incited middle aged predators so many ignorant people are fascinated with.

Currently that has not been mentioned, the OP seems most outraged by the name change. But if medical intervention is discussed then if OP has managed to maintain a healthy relationship and open communication with her child then she is far more likely to be able to help the child seek appropriate advice from a range of qualified practitioners on both sides of the fence so the child can make an informed decision as an adult.

I work in school admissions.
6th forms will by now be very used to students changing their names / gender, it happens all the time, so that in itself will not be an issue. We have the option on our admission form for both legal name and preferred name. The teachers only see the preferred name on the register.

However, schools do have to complete a DfE census return on their student details which is based on their legal name and biological sex. I think private schools do something similar but in not as much detail as it doesn’t affect their funding.
Therefore on our school database the student’s biological sex has to be recorded even if they have changed gender. If we recorded the incorrect biological sex for a pupil this would flag up.
My point is that there are bigger implications to lying on a form.

The other points about medical reasons are also really important. For example, some of the girls suffer badly with heavy periods but they inform so the medical staff can help them if they feel unwell, and usually teachers are aware too in case they need to leave class
If a student told us they were male and then was ill due to a period but didn’t want to tell us they wouldn’t get a correct medical assessment. The first aiders wouldn’t know why.

There have been occasions when a student has had to go to hospital (collapsed, had a seizure, an injury, hit by a car etc) and a member of staff would go with them until the parent got there. Sometimes the parent is at work quite far away. If the school didn’t know the pupil’s correct biological sex how could they give the hospital the correct information for treatment?
None of these are made-up scenarios.

It’s completely fine to be asked to be called a different name at school - to be honest it’s a rite of passage for many students to change their name at some point. What’s not ok is to lie about biological sex to a school that is safeguarding and caring for the child and all the other young people they are teaching.

It sounds like a very difficult situation all round and I do feel for you OP.

Its trying to appropriate a minor - another person's child - to legitimise the decisions of adults.
Its the use of children for someone else's validation of life choices.
Its not cool. Its ghoulish.

I've talked about how many allies and how many activists do this before. Its not ok. Its not about them. Its something that is getting noticed more though.

Its about the best interests of EACH INDIVIDUAL child not what adult activists think they should do.

A child that identifies as trans is going to have to deal with the reality of their sex and the legal implications around transitioning. This is none negotiable and irrelevant to affirmation. Parents have a responsibility to their child to help them understand this and how other people will try and appropriate their anguish with their identity. They need accurate and impartial support and advice. Not yes men and women.

Suggesting we ignore these realities is not cool.

Especially since we know what percentage of teenagers DO desist. Kids deserve adults to give them escape routes should they need them later. They may choose not to take them but they deserve to have them available.

Filling in forms in the wrong sex, does not allow this. Adult conversations with education establishments about gender questioning children do.

Safeguarding comes first. That includes identifying influences trying to latch onto vulnerable teens for their own agendas.

Hi @speckledgreenfrogs first can I say well done for seeking help on this really complex topic. This must be a huge issue for you and your entire family.

Your child is also doing a really brave thing by asking for their new school to treat them as a boy, and that bravery must be recognised. Now it needs to be tempered a little bit with a dose of reality, but I think your child's approach is understandable.

Obviously your child needs to understand that they need to be honest with authority figures and on any legal forms. Therefore, when the school application form asked about gender it is totally acceptable to answer "other" or "non-binary" or "rather not say", but at the moment they cannot answer "male". They can also ask their new headmaster and teachers to use their new name and to use masculine pronouns, but they also need to be honest with these authority figures that biologically and legally they are still female, because this does matter when it comes to medical issues, personal hygiene matters, as well as things like access to toilets and changing rooms. PPs are correct that the other students at school are still children and their rights to privacy do need to be respected. That said, I am confident that the school will have encountered trans pupils before or at least will have policies in place to support them, and I think this conversation will be easier than you fear.

With respect to other pupils at school, I think it should be up to your child what they tell people. They will introduce themselves using their new legal name, and they will be dressed as a boy, but as PPs have said, their physicality is still likely to be predominantly female, so I suspect most people will click pretty quickly what is going on. And I really don't think this will be a problem. The vast majority of young people are totally fine with trans people, and those that are not typically have a much bigger issue with transwomen rather than transmen. I think there will be some who ask your child about their gender, there will be some who ask each other, and there will be some that don't ask at all and just get on with it. I suspect that almost without exception they will use the correct name and masculine pronouns if that is what they prefer.

A lot of your messages OP are about your fear of people finding out about your child. I honestly do not think this will be as big an issue as you fear, at least not from their peers. Sure there will be a few idiots who make comments, but I suspect their friends will give them a hard enough time that they will probably only do it once.

Can I also give a shout out to your amazing DS(11) who sounds like he is so proud to tell people about his older brother. Don't be embarrassed by that or make him feel embarrassed about it. It's a wonderful thing.

On the issue of toilets by the way, while this is clearly an important issue at school, where the other pupils are children, and I know that legally transmen must use female toilets everywhere, I think once your child is in the great wide world, this question will vanish. In practice men pay absolutely no attention to anyone else in a public toilet or changing room. If in future your child chooses to use a male toilet nobody will even notice and even if they did I cannot imagine anyone making a complaint. Legally they can I know but they won't. I think these issues are again much bigger for transwomen.

And as a small point, one of your earlier comments referred to binders and packers. I think the question of binding may be relevant to your child dependent on their body, but I would put the question of packers as far from your mind as possible and leave it there. Nobody wants to have that conversation with their mum ever, so I don't think you need to worry about it.

As to the big elephant in the room, this conversation needs to be about what is right for your child. You love them, and you are absolutely right to try to protect them, but you cannot decide how they live their lives. I know you dreamed of having a daughter and no doubt had lots of plans, but you still have two children and most of those plans (graduation, marriage, children etc) can still happen. The photos might just look a bit different to how you imagined. But I would strongly suggest that you find a support group for the parents of trans-teenagers, as they are the experts who have been through what you are going through now and they will be able to answer your questions much better than Mumsnet can. I am not trans but I came out as a gay man in the early 1990s when that was a lot harder than it is now, and I know many parents of lesbians and gays really benefited from the support of other parents. I think that would be a great resource for you and all your family.

Apologies for the long post as this is a huge issue, but you, your DH and both of your amazing children with come through it.

Good luck!

@Cloudtime surely you can see the differences between an adult and a child though. A child still at the start of their journey through life who wants to lie about who they are to everyone around them including any potential sexual partners. You are happy with your partner others may not be and I am fairly certain no one would ok with that level of lying
and yes everyone deserves to have human rights but they aren’t for anyone absolute and always need to be balanced against each other- some are even directly at odds (right to privacy vs free speech for example

You have got to be joking!!????!!!!