Allowing Trans son to go out in "girl mode"

[Nowayhozay]

I say Trans but to be honest I am still not sure that he is, he has always preferred all things typically girly and has always loved to dress in girls clothes.
We as a family have always given him the freedom to express himself, never tried to stop him and have over the years bought the occasional thing that he has asked for, along with hand me downs from his sister he has accumulated a small wardrobe.

He will be 15 in a couple of months and over the last year mainly due to lockdown he has been been spending long periods in "girl mode" 24/7
I have asked him if he ever wishes that he was a girl but he says no and that he is happy being a boy.
Maybe he is somehow in denial?

Anyhow I am really looking for advice or opinions on taking him out whilst dressed as a girl.
He has asked several times and I feel it is really important to him.
Other parents must have dealt with this at some point?

Once restrictions allow I am thinking of driving to a seaside town a few miles away for a walk along the Prom maybe sit in a coffee shop for a while just to see how it goes. See how he feels about it and if it is something he would actually want to do more of.

Am I doing the wrong thing?

I don't think it's that unusual for a 14/15 year old boy to be happy to go out with his family! Not all teens are ashamed to be seen with their mothers. For all the talk of not stereotyping people - that is a stereotype right there!

OP you seem very kind and open-minded. I do agree with others about female only toilets though and I'm glad you seem to be on board with this. Perhaps a way to deal with this issue is to seek out places which just have one unisex loo (with loo, basin, drier etc inside). I know Costa are known for these - maybe other coffee shops do them too. Good luck.

Hopefully your DC won't be hounded to death by the kind feminists of MN

How absurd. It’s not unkind to ask questions and encourage critical thought. Gender non conforming people can be vulnerable to harm- but not from feminists.

Your son is not trans, he just likes to wear a dress every now and then. There is nothing wrong with that, nothing required from you. However please stop referring to it as "boy" or "girl" mode. It is so wrong, and frankly offensive. There is no such thing as girl mode. Every person is different, you cannot pin a behaviour and decide it is girl behaviour. Boys can wear dresses and behave however they behave without people calling them "girl mode". He is simply your son, who likes wearing a dress sometimes.

My son is nearly 15 and isn't ashamed to be seen with me and still enjoys going for walks with us. I don't think it's uncommon.

I dont think its weird for a 15 year old to go out for the day with his family either.

Does your son have any lgbt friends locally? Is he LGBT or just into the clothes?
Its a shame its such a big deal really. When you say he wears girls clothes, do you mean like normal girls clothes. Jeans, tshirts etc, or do you mean full on glamourous stuff

@ShadierThanaPalmTree

Your son is not trans, he just likes to wear a dress every now and then. There is nothing wrong with that, nothing required from you. However please stop referring to it as "boy" or "girl" mode. It is so wrong, and frankly offensive. There is no such thing as girl mode. Every person is different, you cannot pin a behaviour and decide it is girl behaviour. Boys can wear dresses and behave however they behave without people calling them "girl mode". He is simply your son, who likes wearing a dress sometimes.

The OP says her son will pass as a girl, so I don't think it's just a boy wearing feminine clothes, he must be doing the whole look and I assume the idea is to present as a girl/ young women.

I dont think its weird for a 15 year old to go out for the day with his family either.

That’s not what people are saying.

Does nobody else think the weirdest thing about this situation is a 15 year old boy being 'taken out' for the day by his mum. Wouldn't this be the last thing any 15 year old would want?

Lots of teens are more than happy to still enjoy a day out with parents. Dd always enjoyed both going out with me, going out with dh, going out with us both, out with family, out with family friends - all as well as going out for the day with her own friends. She's 18y now and at university and still enjoys a day out with her parents.

Not all teens shun their family's company.

@mswales

Hi OP, it's lovely how supportive a mum you are. There are lots of great websites and resources out there offering support to parents of LGBTQI young people, I would really advise you go to some of those rather than Mumsnet. Mumsnet is great for many things but it is the very last place anyone wanting support on these issues should come (unless they very firmly believe that there is no such thing as gender, just biological sex). Good luck

The thing is, many of us on here, who are gender critical, have been the weird kid, the one who dresses differently, the one who is gay, or the one who has dysphoria, or a mix of all of those. (And from what the OP says in the original post, there's no indication her DS has dysphoria or is gay.) We know what it's like to be that kid, and so it's perfectly legitimate for us to post here.

Fine for him to wear whatever he likes and feels comfortable in :). Just as long as he's happy wearing what he's wearing to the men's loos of course. I have a DS the same age, with long hair. He dresses in boys' jeans and tshirts but he's still often mistaken for a girl, never had a problem using the gents though. I think people see what they expect to see, so long hair equals girl, but in the gents swings it back to boy.

The OP says her son will pass as a girl, so I don't think it's just a boy wearing feminine clothes, he must be doing the whole look and I assume the idea is to present as a girl/ young women.
That's not so difficult though. I go out with my DS, long hair, jeans, grey tshirt, size 8 trainers, fluff on his top lip and we still get called 'ladies'.

@Allthebears

I don't think it's that unusual for a 14/15 year old boy to be happy to go out with his family! Not all teens are ashamed to be seen with their mothers. For all the talk of not stereotyping people - that is a stereotype right there! OP you seem very kind and open-minded. I do agree with others about female only toilets though and I'm glad you seem to be on board with this. Perhaps a way to deal with this issue is to seek out places which just have one unisex loo (with loo, basin, drier etc inside). I know Costa are known for these - maybe other coffee shops do them too. Good luck.

Thankyou

Yes I think the unisex loos are a very good idea.

@Branleuse

I dont think its weird for a 15 year old to go out for the day with his family either.

Does your son have any lgbt friends locally? Is he LGBT or just into the clothes?
Its a shame its such a big deal really. When you say he wears girls clothes, do you mean like normal girls clothes. Jeans, tshirts etc, or do you mean full on glamourous stuff

He seems to be very popular, he is very easy going and gets along with most people. There is one lad I know of who is openly gay but no one else who would be under the Trans umbrella. A few girls appearing on the scene as you would expect at his age but I don't really know them.

He only wears the normal fashionable things for his age, nothing unusual or outrageous. Apart from the occasional thing I buy for him its mostly hand me downs from his sister.

@kowari

The OP says her son will pass as a girl, so I don't think it's just a boy wearing feminine clothes, he must be doing the whole look and I assume the idea is to present as a girl/ young women. That's not so difficult though. I go out with my DS, long hair, jeans, grey tshirt, size 8 trainers, fluff on his top lip and we still get called 'ladies'.

You are right, although sometimes he will just wear one or two things mixed with clothes from his boy wardrobe.
Most of the time now when he has the opportunity he will dress and present as a girl.
No doubt at all that the wish to go out dressed is with the intention of presenting as a girl and simply blending in

The mental gymnastics done here to keep people confined to boxes is really something else.
I've no idea what you think behaving like a girl looks like OP? Is it a flimsy throw of a ball and running from spiders crying? If stereotypes and wearing dresses are what makes a female, then I despair for many of us. We're clearly failing miserably at performing our sex.
The kind of gender stereotypes enforced on these kids is sad at best and damaging at worst. They're not "girl's clothes" no matter how pink, sparkly or unicorn patterned
Your son doesn't seem like there's an issue at all but you seem determined to find one. He sounds comfortable and happy being who he is (a boy who doesn't relate clothes to sex or gender).

Can people try and remember that youre answering on a support forum bit

@OldLang

The mental gymnastics done here to keep people confined to boxes is really something else. I've no idea what you think behaving like a girl looks like OP? Is it a flimsy throw of a ball and running from spiders crying? If stereotypes and wearing dresses are what makes a female, then I despair for many of us. We're clearly failing miserably at performing our sex. The kind of gender stereotypes enforced on these kids is sad at best and damaging at worst. They're not "girl's clothes" no matter how pink, sparkly or unicorn patterned Your son doesn't seem like there's an issue at all but you seem determined to find one. He sounds comfortable and happy being who he is (a boy who doesn't relate clothes to sex or gender).

I'm not determined to make an issue of anything !
I'm comfortable with who he is and so is he.
Not really sure of your point to be honest.
I didn't post this to argue over feminist issues, I posted on a LGTB Childrens board to ask for advice and opinions on a specific point.
I want my dc to be safe and be able to experience something that is important to him, I wanted to know how other parents had dealt with this situation.
No issue here I am not trying to turn him into a girl but simply give him an opportunity to try something.

No issue here I am not trying to turn him into a girl

Yet you apparently observed "girl mode" behaviours from age 4 and are posting on another thread about the difficulties of being a parent of a trans child.
I didn't actually mention feminism once in my reply and don't see your son wanting to wear alternative clothes as a feminist issue whatsoever, especially considering he has told you directly he does not want to be a girl. My post was about the performative gender roles you are determined to make fit (whether it's the roles of male or female). Gender stereotypes are harmful for everyone, especially when "girl mode and boy mode" are terms which you have apparently used with your children for years. There are no modes. There is being male or female. That is fixed forever but doesn't have to determine the things like hobbies, clothes, relationships rhat person has etc. Those are boxes you are trying to put him in.

You have been given advice and support from a range of posters but have deliberately misread and misunderstood observations given in good faith to push more of your dated ideas about gender stereotypes. That will be infinitely more harmful for your son than leaving the house (with you there) wearing the clothes he wants to wear.

I 'let's my DC go out in a dress, skirt, short shorts etc last year when they were 13. This was mostly walking round to a friends house without me. I was a little worried and we talked through what they would do if they had any negative reactions in the street (we live in the suburbs). Nothing happened and then they just stopped wanting to dress that way.

I really, really don't see how encouraging him to embrace this can end well. We all sacrifice things in our lives to be accepted into 'society', those who openly reject our rules (even if they are just silly traditions) are rejected. It's human nature.
We are working on gender stereotypes, but we are still living in a world of set expectations. Just like I don't swear in front of children, or walk about topless in hot weather.

I was wondering if this thread 40 years ago would be ‘my son wants to go out in public with a purple Mohican, pin through his nose, kilt and DMs’.

Clothes are clothes - they don’t change your DNA. People will react - in this case some people will make assumptions and (for whatever reason) try to push these.

Girl mode is an odd phrase though. How will he react if someone starts telling insults? ‘Girl’ mode (cry) or ‘boy’ mode (punch them on the nose)?

I think 'girl mode' is an outdated and regressive term that really shouldn't be used in today's enlightened times. The only other person I know who uses it is Eddie Izzard and he's of the older generation that still sometimes use old fashioned terms so I would cease and desist on that OP if I were you.

I'm also wondering what type of clothing he wants to wear in public as I'm not sure he would get comments or problems just going for a walk in jeans and t shirt?

“ I can not see why that is a complicated concept or would offend anyone”

Said about boy and girl mode. And you say your son changes his behaviour and mannerisms when in each mode.

You can’t see why that’s an issue? It’s an issue because there isn’t male and female behaviours as such- and the fact you’ve allowed him to be one OR the other from a young age has probably led to this confusion. He should have just been encouraged to see his clothes as clothing rather than being allowed to “dress up” as a girl and therefore “act” like a girl...I’d actually be quite worried had either of my children done this. My dd wanted to be called by a boy name and chose clothing from the “boys section” and got her hair cut short but her actual personality and behaviour didn’t change as she had been raised to just be genuine and do activities she enjoyed at that point. The more we accept and repeat stereotypes the worse it is for both sexes.

You now have a situation where your son who says he is happy being male acts differently when “male” than “female” so which personality is he actually genuinely comfortable in? And can he be encouraged to merge the two to just be “Bob” (or whatever his name is). No more boy or girl mode- how he is dressed is Bob mode and he needs to be challenged a bit on “girly” affectations as does he really see women as being defined by playing with their hair and make up? Giggling? Cooing over kittens etc? He needs confidence in being himself and seeing that other than activities which actively involve his penis, he can choose anything he wants in terms of clothing or hobbies or interests.

I do think underwear is actually a bit different in terms of Lacy pants being sexualised rather than functional and I wouldn’t buy my teen dd or ds these items.

my teenage dc is female but presents andro/masculine and has done for a few years (ids as NB) Isnt it odd that noone really bats an eye, but really do when its a male kid dressing a bit feminine.
Admittedly I dont call it boy mode because its just clothes, but we are still much more threatened by feminine male children, than masculine female ones.
In my opinion, if this is just the clothes hes into and hes not trying to say hes a girl or asking you to redefine reality, then his non conformity is fine. He just needs to be able to handle himself and own it.
If this is going to be a part of his life, and he wants to dress in this style more and more, he needs to be open with his more accepting friends, because he would probably be safer going out somewhere close to home and in his own community, no?

we are still much more threatened by feminine male children, than masculine female ones.

I’ve often thought this. It’s such a shame for those males who would like to wear ‘feminine’ styles.

I think the discomfort comes mostly from alpha/masculine men who for whatever reason cannot cope with other men wanting to look feminine. It’s suggestive of an attitude that anything feminine or traditionally associated with women and girls is somehow lesser than all the manly things. Less strong, less serious, less important.

However, I am also more aware than I would like to be about ‘sissy’ fetishises and porn which for some men (NAMALT etc) is the motivation for wanting to wear heels/make up/stockings etc. It doesn’t seem to work so much the other way round as I don’t think there are many women getting sexual kicks out of having short hair and wearing jeans and work boots. I may be wrong but it’s not a kink I’ve ever personally heard of.

Please note that I’m not suggesting OP’s cross dressing son has a fetish. Just that it is the case for a proportion of men who wear clothes designed for women and that might be a reason why some people react negatively to seeing men in ultra feminine clothes in public.

Something like skinny jeans, make up and a pink top would be quite unremarkable to me. That wouldn’t scream fetish, but certain other styles would.