horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

Are people talking about generalisations? Or are they talking about incidents which appear to be happening? You are the one who seem to be generalising by thinking they are talking about ALL parents of trans kids.

I think this debate would be helped if we all started listening with more attunement to what each other are actually saying, instead of what we think each other are saying. And of course, there will be plenty of diversity of views on both sides of the argument and we have to remember that before we criticise all of that movement for what some are saying.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I'm not sure why a very simplified explanation would remind you of an alleged peadophile with multiple mental health and addiction issues and more money than sense who literally paid doctors to be unethical tbh, but I guess you thought you did something there.

Many people get surgeries of all kinds every day so their body matches how they feel. Why not be reminded of someone who had their ears pinned back and felt happy and confident afterwards, or the person who's mental health was suffering because of their AA cups so they had breast implants and felt amazing afterwards?

I suppose there isn't any 'argument' without the most extreme individuals being brought into it though so I see why you used MJ as an example.

I think the difference is, if I had a breast reduction due to having excessively large breasts, I’m not changing my “identity”. I’m still me, same name, same sex, same everything but with smaller breasts. You’re comparing two different things; a transman wants top surgery because they believe, for what ever reason, they are men. It’s ironic that the two surgeries you mentioned are no longer available on the NHS as they are deemed cosmetic, whereas top surgery is. My sister had to wait 18 months to have reconstructive surgery following breast cancer as the waiting list in the NHS was so long. Now that IS a scandal,

this is a support board. People who are further down the road with a trans child and are affirming them should be able to post in the LGBT children section without people telling them their child is just like Michael Jackson, or scolding them about how they are definitely permanently damaging their child. The "medicalisation of pre pubescent children" is waved around at people regardless of if their child is on a medical pathway or not, and apparently in total ignorance that in the vast vast majority of GID referrals, this is never even on the table. it's ignorant and insulting

Sorry OP but you are coming across as politically motivated and angry even "hateful" towards any disagreement.

Most people have a natural concern over the permanent medicalisation of children, many of whom might change their minds at any point in the future that they are "trans" and were gender non-conforming instead.

It's right to treat the enormous surge in girls wanting to become "boys" with a level of caution and scepticism. It's very trendy right now and it's a sign of a significantly misogynistic world these children are growing up in.

100% affirmation is not always the best approach.

I'm very happy for you and your son to have followed the 100% affirmation path. Very happy that it's so far working out for you and your son, but I would be very wary of promoting this approach for all families. Gender ideology is harmful and to pretend it isn't, is basic ignorance.

I know you all love to go "evidence please" so I'm going to ask you now for evidence that I am advocating "promoting this approach [affirmation] for all families", and also evidence that the increase in trans identities among teenagers is caused by the "significantly misogynistic world these children are growing up in".

as an aside, I do hope that those of you who are against medicalisation of trans youth also take a firm stand against ridiculing the appearances of trans adults who do not pass, and of trans identities in general. Perhaps there would be less demand for medical procedures that enable people to pass as their desired gender (thus disguising their trans status) if there was also less prurient speculation and mockery (so stunning and brave etc) of non passing trans people, and harmful generalisations and negative stereotypes about trans people. Perhaps people would be less inclined to make irreversible changes to their bodies if there was more acceptance of fluid/non binary identities, and less "I identify as an attack helicopter/ oh I wonder what mode Eddie Izzard is in today" style mockery of them.

indirect bigotry is still bigotry, and it is harmful. to pretend it isn't is basic ignorance.

@outedbyfairycop

Well said,I wish I was as eloquent

Oops should be @outedbyfaircop

Perhaps there would be less demand for medical procedures that enable people to pass as their desired gender (thus disguising their trans status)

Or we could just stop ascribing stereotypes to gender?

I am somewhat on the GC side, but do get annoyed at people seeing badly-written news articles about trans kids where it mentions a parent saying something like 'She wasn't like boys, she liked dolls and pretty dresses' and then concluding 'THEY TRANSED THEIR SON JUST BECAUSE HE LIKED DOLLS!!!!!'. That's simplistic reporting - no one 'transes their kids' just because they play with gender atypical toys, I think it is always much more complex than that. In fact it's entirely possible that phrases like that are just stuck in my journalists to fit a narrative (my family appeared in a newspaper article once when I was a kid, and they totally made up everything my mum was supposed to have said). So I wouldn't take any way a parent of trans kids is reported in media as being truly represented - it'll always be a much more simplistic narrative and more complex than put over in a news article or item.

My family member is transformed since they came out as trans. From an unhappy individual who couldn't engage or hold eye contact, we now have conversations where they look me in the eye and engage with what is going on in their life. The happiness compared to how they were before just shines from them.

Why it is only trans people’s happiness and affirmation that matters?

@MinnieMous3 - I'm not sure how it follows from that posters comment that 'only trans people’s happiness and affirmation matters'

What harm does their happiness do to others?

@MinnieMous3

My family member is transformed since they came out as trans. From an unhappy individual who couldn't engage or hold eye contact, we now have conversations where they look me in the eye and engage with what is going on in their life. The happiness compared to how they were before just shines from them.

Why it is only trans people’s happiness and affirmation that matters?

this is a post about parents of trans children, on the LGBT children board.

do you ask posters on the feminism section why they only care about women? what sort of response would you expect someone to receive if they did? do you think this response to you is more polite, or less polite than that would be?

What harm does their happiness do to others?

Haha oh dear

Because this entire thread seems to be an exercise in ‘why can’t those awful biological women just # bekind because my relative was so sad before coming as as a girl’.

The trans ideology is having a damaging effect on women’s rights, the safeguarding of women and children, the law, life and language. The ideology actively compels people to state a scientific untruth so we don’t ‘hurt people’s feelings’.

This is nothing like the struggle of LGB people. The rights they were fighting for had zero negative effect on anyone around them - they didn’t come at a cost to anyone, and they didn’t seek to change accepted science in order to satisfy their own need for validation.

Being LGB does not result in irreversible medical procedures, and it’s community does not act in a repulsively misogynistic and threatening manner to anyone who shows them anything other than unquestioning agreement. It has been a long hard slog for LGB people, but things have happened at a pace where society changes with them, rather than practically overnight demanding everyone use different and needlessly complicated language, deny scientific fact and backpeddle on the rights of another protected group in order to feel validated.

As I said before the trans allies promote ‘gender ideology’ in an almost cult-like manner, appealing to the need for teenagers to fit into identity boxes that will bring them attention and notoriety. I came across the page ‘Cool 2 B trans’ the other day - this is an organisation that gives presentations in being a transgender ally on an official level. I can only imagine the reaction if a similar ‘Cool 2 B gay’ organisation was doing similar presentations, with a website easily accessible to young people - it would be thought of as rather sinister.

So no, it isn’t just a case of ‘# bekind because it doesn’t affect us’. This is a very slippery slope to feelings taking precedence over material reality, and these things are always pushed further - from drag queens, to trans, to non binary, to gender fluid, etc etc. Not because these natural identities are coming to the surface but because it is part of a trend in many cases, and as with other trends, they become boring and they seek the next level.

I myself am happy to use preferred pronouns, names, and am polite and respectful to everyone I meet. But I do not feel their ‘identity’ which has no relevance in the material world trumps the rights women should have to feel safe and protected, because the violence they experience is very much material.

as an aside, I do hope that those of you who are against medicalisation of trans youth also take a firm stand against ridiculing the appearances of trans adults who do not pass, and of trans identities in general. Perhaps there would be less demand for medical procedures that enable people to pass as their desired gender (thus disguising their trans status) if there was also less prurient speculation and mockery (so stunning and brave etc) of non passing trans people, and harmful generalisations and negative stereotypes about trans people. Perhaps people would be less inclined to make irreversible changes to their bodies if there was more acceptance of fluid/non binary identities, and less "I identify as an attack helicopter/ oh I wonder what mode Eddie Izzard is in today" style mockery of them.

Well, what I would like to see is an acceptance that changing sex is literally impossible, and that males should never be in spaces or using provision meant for females, so 'passing' becomes irrelevant really. People can just wear what they like and present how they like with the knowledge that they are still male or female. I want to see more people 'widening the bandwidth' of male and female, not this idea that because someone doesn't identify with the stereotypes that society has placed on their sex, that they are literally the opposite sex - that concept just reinforces stereotypes further.

Oh and by the way, I don't 'mock' Eddie Izzard, I simply think it is highly fucking offensive that he appears to think that 'girl mode' consists of a dress and a pair of breasts (that he has apparently always been oh so envious of) that he can put on and take off as he pleases. How bloody dare he!

Sorry, that first paragraph is a previous quote (sometimes I really wish there was a edit button!)

I come from a cultural belief system where being trans or celibate is better than being gay or lesbian, and families often force their kids down the trans / bisexual route. I know many lesbian women or gay men forced into unsuitable marriages; with many women living as the opposite sex to suit their families’ belief systems so they can go to uni or work outside the home. I think that’s why I want more regulation around hormone treatment.

@VallarMorghulis

I haven't RTFT so the discussion may have moved on, I couldn't read the OP without replying straight away.

I am the parent of a trans young adult, and I'm also gender critical. The two are not incompatible. I respect people's choice to present as they wish and to do what they like to their bodies as long as they are adults, I also respect people's preferred pronouns.

However I don't believe that human beings can change sex and that gender trumps sex. I don't believe children should be allowed to make irreversible changes to their bodies and I'm against the use of puberty blockers. For what it's worth, my trans offspring agrees with me on this.

I also haven't seen any hatred of parents of trans children in general, especially those who follow a watchful waiting approach. I've seen a lot of concern for the children and young people concerned, and I've personally received nothing but support when I sought it on Mumsnet. There is loathing for one particular parent of a trans young person, and for good reason. I'm sure I don't have to name her.

That last bit. I have no idea who that is. Then again, I'd never ask for support in MN.... so much vitriol against so many people. I try to help, but the vitriol is appalling.

@outedbyfaircop

I know you all love to go "evidence please" so I'm going to ask you now for evidence that I am advocating "promoting this approach [affirmation] for all families", and also evidence that the increase in trans identities among teenagers is caused by the "significantly misogynistic world these children are growing up in".

as an aside, I do hope that those of you who are against medicalisation of trans youth also take a firm stand against ridiculing the appearances of trans adults who do not pass, and of trans identities in general. Perhaps there would be less demand for medical procedures that enable people to pass as their desired gender (thus disguising their trans status) if there was also less prurient speculation and mockery (so stunning and brave etc) of non passing trans people, and harmful generalisations and negative stereotypes about trans people. Perhaps people would be less inclined to make irreversible changes to their bodies if there was more acceptance of fluid/non binary identities, and less "I identify as an attack helicopter/ oh I wonder what mode Eddie Izzard is in today" style mockery of them.

indirect bigotry is still bigotry, and it is harmful. to pretend it isn't is basic ignorance.

But also ...

this is a post about parents of trans children, on the LGBT children board.

The level of hypocrisy here is jaw-dropping.

Yes Lang, i too find it very hypocritical that people who are so vocal about protecting their own spaces from intruders are so cavalier about coming on to a board that is not for them and haranguing the people that it is for with their doom mongering and bigotry. And the hypocrisy of pearl clutching about hormones for children and ‘unnecessary’ surgery while mocking trans people who do not pass. Glad you’re catching on.

@Sansaplans

Perhaps there would be less demand for medical procedures that enable people to pass as their desired gender (thus disguising their trans status)

Or we could just stop ascribing stereotypes to gender?

So your endgame then is no more trans people?

I think humans should just stop stealing from each other, but i still lock my door at night because this is the world i have to live in.

i too find it very hypocritical that people who are so vocal about protecting their own spaces from intruders are so cavalier about coming on to a board that is not for them and haranguing the people that it is for with their doom mongering and bigotry. And the hypocrisy of pearl clutching about hormones for children and ‘unnecessary’ surgery while mocking trans people who do not pass.

Well there is no physical risk to you from us being on these boards, hence why men post on here as well and we don’t try to get them kicked off. We’re not being protective of female ‘things’ per se, just areas which are there for our physical protection and dignity.

As for mocking people who don’t pass, I have never and would never do that.

I don't recognise what OP describes. What people feel about trans is totally different to fest they feel about a trans parent.

When young athletes are expected to hand over the financial benefits whilst simultaneously being scolded about how awful they are for not being happy to give their college sports scholarship away to make someone else “happy”, then that is too much. It is ok for you to admit that you just don’t care about the harm you are cheerleading to have dumped on those young athletes, and that you think it is fair.

When amazon delivery drivers are expected to piss in bottles or lose pay, to make someone else ‘happy’ with convenient and cheap goods, then that is too much

When people in developing countries are having their homes rendered uninhabitable by man made climate change, to make someone else ‘happy’ with their foreign holidays, gas central heated houses and diet dependant on industrial farming, then that is too much

When Apple factories have to be suicide proofed to make someone else ‘happy’ with their new smartphone, then that is too much

In daily life most people do a thousand things that hurt someone else every day, those someone elses can be in the hundreds and thousands and millions. Where is the line and who decides that?

Unless you happen to live a life that has zero negative impact on any other human on the planet, you are not going to guilt trip me into going ‘no transphobia is fine actually, crack on’.