horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

@Oblomov21

I don't recognise what OP describes. What people feel about trans is totally different to fest they feel about a trans parent.

Do you have a trans child Oblomov?

@outedbyfaircop

When young athletes are expected to hand over the financial benefits whilst simultaneously being scolded about how awful they are for not being happy to give their college sports scholarship away to make someone else “happy”, then that is too much. It is ok for you to admit that you just don’t care about the harm you are cheerleading to have dumped on those young athletes, and that you think it is fair.

When amazon delivery drivers are expected to piss in bottles or lose pay, to make someone else ‘happy’ with convenient and cheap goods, then that is too much

When people in developing countries are having their homes rendered uninhabitable by man made climate change, to make someone else ‘happy’ with their foreign holidays, gas central heated houses and diet dependant on industrial farming, then that is too much

When Apple factories have to be suicide proofed to make someone else ‘happy’ with their new smartphone, then that is too much

In daily life most people do a thousand things that hurt someone else every day, those someone elses can be in the hundreds and thousands and millions. Where is the line and who decides that?

Unless you happen to live a life that has zero negative impact on any other human on the planet, you are not going to guilt trip me into going ‘no transphobia is fine actually, crack on’.

Well to be fair, you could also say that about any wrongdoing couldn’t you? There’s bad stuff out there, a bit more doesn’t matter?

@outedbyfaircop

When young athletes are expected to hand over the financial benefits whilst simultaneously being scolded about how awful they are for not being happy to give their college sports scholarship away to make someone else “happy”, then that is too much. It is ok for you to admit that you just don’t care about the harm you are cheerleading to have dumped on those young athletes, and that you think it is fair.

When amazon delivery drivers are expected to piss in bottles or lose pay, to make someone else ‘happy’ with convenient and cheap goods, then that is too much

When people in developing countries are having their homes rendered uninhabitable by man made climate change, to make someone else ‘happy’ with their foreign holidays, gas central heated houses and diet dependant on industrial farming, then that is too much

When Apple factories have to be suicide proofed to make someone else ‘happy’ with their new smartphone, then that is too much

In daily life most people do a thousand things that hurt someone else every day, those someone elses can be in the hundreds and thousands and millions. Where is the line and who decides that?

Unless you happen to live a life that has zero negative impact on any other human on the planet, you are not going to guilt trip me into going ‘no transphobia is fine actually, crack on’.

Well, obviously I can only speak for myself, but I do try and think about how the way I live my life impacts others. So reading up on what is going on, think about where I buy from and how I buy, trying to reduce and reuse, buy second hand, stuff like that. I am by no means perfect, far from it, but I am trying to at least consider my actions.

What I definitely don't do is hear how my actions are impacting others and then tell them to 'go fuck yourself you dumb cunt', 'die in a grease fire' or 'suck my dick' (they are all direct quotes by the way and there are plenty more where that came from, thousands actually, if you are interested).

Seriously OP, why have you started a big angry fight on a support topic? The tone was set right from your OP.

Why didn't you start this in FWR or AIBU or site stuff or any other topic more 'conducive to honest good faith debate'?

Who does this help?

@LangClegsInSpace

Seriously OP, why have you started a big angry fight on a support topic? The tone was set right from your OP.

Why didn't you start this in FWR or AIBU or site stuff or any other topic more 'conducive to honest good faith debate'?

Who does this help?

I’ve read this whole thread and almost from the off, I was wondering why this thread was posted in what’s supposed to be a support forum.

It seemed combative from the OP and hasn’t got better, and the responses that were solicited from the opening post on just this thread are now being used as ‘proof’ that this whole board is not supportive.

...as an aside, I do hope that those of you who are against medicalisation of trans youth also take a firm stand against ridiculing the appearances of trans adults who do not pass, and of trans identities in general. Perhaps there would be less demand for medical procedures that enable people to pass as their desired gender

Transboys who go on PBs do not tend to pass better as transmen as their growth is stunted so they end up as short, slight, transmen.
PBs tend to only help transgirls ‘pass’ as transwomen later in life.
So who’s the benefit for? And why the ‘one size fits all’?

If that info re life for Jazz Jennings now is correct, that’s extremely intrusive parenting

"Any questions are an existential threat, because the whole thing unravels in seconds."

This is the impression I've gotten too.

"The arrogance and presumption, it reminds me of when women are talking among themselves about sexual violence and men rock up and want to reframe it as a "well I've never experienced this and it doesn't make sense to me so it's on you to convince me that this is enough of a problem for me to let you continue talking about it in peace" .

I just had to point out that is nonsense? For a start, women can have penises? So you can't know for sure who the men and women are in that situation [Bigot!] or even that the person disclosing, was actually sexually assaulted by a man [Bigot!]. He may have looked like a man, he may have had a penis, that he raped you with, but what if he was really a woman? Why say it was a man^, when it maybe wasn't? [Bigot!].

You want a female Doctor to administor your rape screening? Because you claim to be traumatised? [Bigot!] Yes I suppose that's fine ."Hi, I'm Maxine" "But I was told I could speak to a female Dr?" Dr Maxine "I am female...

DNA is found, the rapist goes to jail. But as they feel like a woman, they get sent to the womens population, where they continue to sexually assault other women at their leisure. Perhaps even with their lady dick.

Women have the words to communicate sexual assault, in a clear way. "He put his fingers inside me, without my consent". "He wanted to put me in my place". Etc.
Men can be sexually assaulted, and understand how awful and intrusive that is for anyone. Many don't care, not because they don't understand, but because they just don't care. They see women as inferior.

NOT the same as a trans person not being able to explain why they feel trans, in any other terms but "feelings".

If I was a teenager these days, I bet I'd be getting suckered into all this :( I cut my hair really short, started using a boys nickname and wearing boys clothes, and realised I'm bisexual. I'm still very masculine, but I can no more become a man, than I can become really tall, or willowy, or strong, or gorgeous.

Sorry women had the words. Now woman, women, man, men, he and she , his and hers, and even penis, are beginning to have different definition. Even maternity leaflets etc are now using random gender neutral terms, to suit a tiny minority of non female females, who have a baby in their not female wombs, as they had a non males non male penis, in their non female vagina.

This thread is a bit like watching someone realise their house of cards is falling down and so their really shouting at the wind that did it.

This thread is a lot like someone asking that we keep a support topic supportive, and other people saying "no i won't because my political agenda, that I can discuss anywhere else in this site, is more important than a struggling parent trying to navigate a difficult situation with their child"

You all claim to be worried about the impact this is having on kids, then simultaneously taking away a support board for the parents of those kids you supposedly worry about.

You're like the people who stand outside abortion clinics screaming and shouting your beliefs at people, then you just move onto the next one, not giving a shit about the life you've just impacted, just as long as you've had your say, thats all that matters.

Why do you think it is ok to force your lifestyle or the lifestyle of your child on others? We are not mindless drones unable to see medical facts, nor are we comfortable with the erosion of our rights. Your child is trans, but they are not our child and it is not on us to validate them.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult no one should be taking a support board away from anyone. Parents of trans children deserve a space to talk about so. But when it is demanded that the outside world adapt to suit that individual, it’s not on

Thats the point though, the support is being taken away.

A parent posts about their child struggling and gets immediately leapt on "well he isn't your daughter for starters", "your son better not use the ladies toilets", "immediately pull him out of all sports". That is not helpful in any way, and all of those things are discussed daily, and extensively everywhere else on the MN.

Why would you see a post about a parent struggling with a difficult situation and use it to say the same tired old unhelpful shit and make them feel worse?

Just go onto one of the billion other threads and say it there instead of alienating parents looking for support.

Mumsnet is a huge, public forum. Yes, it can be a brilliant source of support, but it’s not a closed support group. Anyone from any walk of life and with any belief can and probably will have their say on any post. If a parent is so distressed about their child being trans (and I would be, too) that they really cannot and do not want to hear any comments that aren’t 100% in line with trans ideology, I’d suggest joining a specific support group.

I have a disabled child. I get plenty of advice and camaraderie from the SN chat here, but there are some things I only share with other ‘autism Mums’ in our own space, because frankly I don’t want to hear anyone else’s opinion.

Firstly I do think Mumsnet should be a place where parents can come for advice and support.
However I don’t think this Board is that different to others, in that not all advice on this site is helpful or affirmative.
For example on SEN posts you’ll often get a parent saying ‘oh just tell them their behaviour isn’t acceptable’;
Or on Parenting Teens, on a discussion about gaming addiction, you’ll get a parent of a 4 year old suggesting ‘just turn off the WiFi and anyway my child will never get a smartphone until they are 18!’
I think some posters come across threads through Active, and don’t realise they are on a Support Board.

As a parent of an SEN child I would be really upset if I felt my parenting was being blamed as the reason my child has SEN. However I do understand that our home life and how I support my child will have an impact on how he copes with his SEN. I can understand how parents of trans children must feel they need a space to discuss this without being criticised.

I do think where SEN parents are concerned we have an advantage in that there has been a lot of recent research done on SEN and consequently there is a variety of support and therapy available. Autism for example has risen hugely over the last decade, and there is a lot of research (and debate) looking into why this is, and what treatments can help.
When my son was diagnosed I was offered therapy sessions and parenting sessions which helped a lot. We had an excellent therapist who explained that DS would never be cured of his condition, but that our aim was to enable him to understand himself and how to manage his condition day to day in the real world.

With transgender children it seems there is simply not that level of research / analysis / debate / support based on medical evidence. All the information I have seen seems to come from a very small number of organisations and debate is often shut down.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult I apologise, you are right. This is neither posted in feminism nor the main boards, anyone with an issue on this shouldn’t be posting here.

We are asking that you don't come on the threads of parents asking for support with your agenda. Nobody is asking even for 100% affirmation, just not to derail thread with goady questions designed to get answers you don't like so you can all post your links and discuss that instead of trying to support someone.

Is that really so difficult?

I have neither asked goady questions nor posted links anywhere. Though anyone that has is perfectly entitled to question some of the thought patterns and opinions of trans identifying people and their parents on whatever other board they choose. Just because you dislike a question does not make it goady.

I have neither asked goady questions nor posted links anywhere

Then that clearly wasn't aimed at you personally, but those people who do that.

Just because you dislike a question does not make it goady.

I don't dislike questions, I have spent a fair bit of time on MN answering questions to the best of my ability.

Asking a question to a parent of a trans person that isn't relevant to their particular dilemma in order to get an answer that can be jumped on to make an irrelevant point and sway the conversation from supporting the parent to discussing trans individuals who do illegal things and other things irrelevant to the op is absolutely goady, and, if you see the post made by MN earlier they will not be allowing this either.

It would be great if people could adhere to that rather than upsetting parents and getting themselves deleted and banned, but we shall see how it goes I guess.

Some people think airing their views continuously on this topic are more important than supporting the people who are struggling with this issue.

Well, having read through the whole thing, I’m at the end and now have no clue what the OP posted initially. There’s some very vitriolic and offensive posts, and they’ve come from a couple of posters in particular. To me, it’s very clear what their agenda is.

I'm finding this all so odd. Flagging this is a support board not for political debate. But has the OP actually asked for any support or advice? Seems to be a specific post to kick off a debate about the topic? It's just a tad bizarre. If anything would put parents off from requesting support via a support board, its posts like this one.

Having been a bisexual child, gender non conforming, self harming and self destructive child (all seen as attempts to rebel, instead of find myself), that was not only misundstood by my parents (who still don't know!), and having dated a guy who turned out to be mtf trans, I do wonder how much the parents actually know or understand (or don't...) what is really going in these kids pysches.

I soon discovered the mtf transwoman I dated, was 17, was misogynistic, really awful to his mother, really walked all over her and treated her like a skivvy. He was an arrogant, spoiled shit, who always got what he wanted. His sisters were nearly half his age, but did almost twice as much helping around the home. He wanted to swan about, sit gaming (and eat, shit, fuck me, repeat) like a princess. He had everyone feeling so sorry for him, but wasn't telling either his mothers, or his Dr's, how much of a sexual thrill he was getting out of being a woman. Or just how active and healthy, our sex life was, mostly PIV as he wasn't really keen on foreplay. I didn't realise he had autogeniphilia, until years later, when I read the term on a trans widows thread here, and it all clicked. He used to "cream himself" regularly, while dressed as a woman, and would "accidentally" send very sexualised pictures of himself, in lingerie etc. Then he introduced some really kinky stuff, pegging etc.

I think what attracted me to him, was the sense he didn't quite fit in, like me, then when he said he was a cross dresser, I found that quite sexy, in a kinky way. But, when he declared he was really a woman, that was the beginning of the end. I couldn't get my head around it then, and still can't now over a decade later.

I do sometimes wonder, how much confusion about sexuality, or budding fetishes etc, isn't discussed with parents, who get a sort of white washed version...

Sorry my point was, I think society has forgotten to keep an open mind with kids and teenagers. That they have all sorts going on in their heads, probably don't understand half of it themselves, etc, and that we shouldn't label them as anything, too young, and certainly shouldn't be talking about any kind of non necessary medical interventions, that could cause more harm than good long term, legal changes of name, etc. There's a reason teens aren't supposed to have sex until they're 16, drive until they're 17, or drink alcohol until they're 18. After that, I do get there's not much you can do to help them, and you might be afraid to challenge them, in case you loose them.

I do get that parents will turn anywhere for support, they'd go to hell and back, to reincarnate Rasputin himself, if they thought it would make their child happy. But I feel often parents and kids, are being somewhat sucked in, and used for an agenda they themselves don't fully understand, over a state of being, they don't understand, that their kids don't understand, and that can't be researched, because that would be considered akin to gay conversion therapy (only it would really be more like the opposite of that? Fully accepting yourself therapy..?).

I hate being considered transphobic, for thinking society is wrong, and needs to change, not trans people. I still think toxic masculinity in general, has caused not just the trans mental health crises, but has spawned the incel movement, and impacted society negatively in many other ways too.

I hate being considered transphobic, for thinking society is wrong, and needs to change, not trans people.

I do think Mumsnet as a microcosm of society needs to change and be more accepting of trans people. The assumption seems to be that they are misguided and wrong and making a huge mistake. But perhaps consider for a moment they may know their own mind better than you and are doing what is best for them to live a full and happy life.