horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

No I wasn't being smug but you have proven a point.

You have interpreted my post in a way you choose to view it based on the fact that we disagree so everything I say you will always view as a negative. Should that mean MNHQ should delete my post just because you feel I am being smug and dismissive?

I'm with you, op, for a place where so many people seem to be so supportive of others I'm shocked at how much hostility and dismissiveness I've read on threads about trans issues.

Interesting to see someone's lived experience of being trans (if we're going by Stonewall's definition) described as a "non-event". Not terribly inclusive of you is it? Trans Top Trumps seems to be rapidly gaining in popularity recently. We've even got posters who, on one thread is claiming their child is trans while saying on another that their child has said no they aren't when asked directly. Wonder why that might be?
Also a lot of wilful blindness of the impact of gender ideology on the gay and lesbian communities.

I think if someone could explain to those of us that don't "get" it, what makes these children anything other than body dysmorphic, it would make a big difference? I've seen repeated unanswered requests for explanations, and maybe some research, on this site. Many of us want to understand, but can't, because we get accused of transphobia when we do ask questions and try to understand.

I saw a video online, that showed a guy with his head against a wall, and a chair between him and the wall. He couldn't step back, while lifting the chair. Apparently men commonly struggle with this task, as men and women usually have slightly different centres of gravity. Anyway, my point is, would your trans childs centre of gravity match their birth sex, or the one they think they identify with? I don't understand how you can understand the grim reality of being one sex or the other, without having been born and raised as that sex. The differences between male and female are biological only, as far as I can see, and I really don't see how many trans people, are any different from anorexic people arguing that they're fat, when they clearly aren't. I don't understand how affirmation could possibly help, surely it's more like papering over the cracks.

If your adult trans child, committed a petty crime, and had to spend some time in jail, do you think they should be in with the sex they were listed as, at birth, or the one they identify as?

if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to

Plenty of people do say that, what boards are you reading?

Imo the real issue is that there isn't accessible support for children and for their guardians to actually (seperately) recieve professional support to talk through what's going on, and how to support them. MN is an anon forum, no one owes anyone else anything, if you feel it's not supportive as women dare to speak their opinions then perhaps it isn't the place for you. It's one of the only places on the internet that isn't overly censored (rightly it's moderated obviously), you don't get to push to have it taken away because it doesn't suit you.

Sorry *body dysmorphic, or simply afraid of not conforming, and not fitting in etc.

I think if someone could explain to those of us that don't "get" it, what makes these children anything other than body dysmorphic, it would make a big difference?

I know more about what this problem is not supposed to be than about what it is.

I think if someone could explain to those of us that don't "get" it, what makes these children anything other than body dysmorphic, it would make a big difference?

I am not sure it is possible to 'get it'. I certainly don't. I just know since coming out as trans my family member has come into themselves and is now living a full and happy life where they weren't before. Obviously I cannot quiz them on the specifics of that - it would be rude and intrusive.

To be fair, I am an old school 80s feminist (as is their mum) and if I didn't have lived experience of this I would probably be nodding along at some of the gender critical stuff. But being so close to someone living through it, I can see you cannot intellectualise it away and that the fact I don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't valid. I don't 'get' opera or football or people who are fanatical about them, but I can accept they feel differently to me. OK, trite comparison, but you see my point - we have to let people live the life that is right for them, even if we struggle to understand it or it wouldn't be right for us. It is a basic tenet of a fair and liberal society.

I think if someone could explain to those of us that don't "get" it, what makes these children anything other than body dysmorphic, it would make a big difference? I've seen repeated unanswered requests for explanations, and maybe some research, on this site. Many of us want to understand, but can't, because we get accused of transphobia when we do ask questions and try to understand.

I don't 'get it' really, because I've never felt that way, but my son has explained it as though someone is born with a really wonky nose, its all they see when they look in the mirror, it effects their confidence, and some days its all they can think about. Some people will learn to live with it, some people will be happier by disguising it somewhat with makeup etc and others won't be truly happy until they have surgery. I can totally understand that.

Interesting to see someone's lived experience of being trans

That poster isn't trans

Thanks for you explanation. The wonky nose explanation reminds me of Michael Jackson who destroyed his perfectly beautiful face because of his own form of dysphoria.

I'm not sure why a very simplified explanation would remind you of an alleged peadophile with multiple mental health and addiction issues and more money than sense who literally paid doctors to be unethical tbh, but I guess you thought you did something there.

Many people get surgeries of all kinds every day so their body matches how they feel. Why not be reminded of someone who had their ears pinned back and felt happy and confident afterwards, or the person who's mental health was suffering because of their AA cups so they had breast implants and felt amazing afterwards?

I suppose there isn't any 'argument' without the most extreme individuals being brought into it though so I see why you used MJ as an example.

the fact I don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't valid. I don't 'get' opera or football or people who are fanatical about them, but I can accept they feel differently to me. OK, trite comparison, but you see my point - we have to let people live the life that is right for them, even if we struggle to understand it or it wouldn't be right for us. It is a basic tenet of a fair and liberal society.

I absolutely agree with this. As long as we are talking about fully consenting adults and the way that they live that life does not affect anyone else in any way.

Not every parent is identical in their response to there child being trans ive had to defend my child against being labeled as trans because he loves pink and he has long hair I "should" affirm him as a girl except in his own mind he isnt a girl he is a boy with long hair who likes pink which I allow because who the fuck cares right? Turns out a LOT of people care that other peoples perception is greater than my sons reality

This culture is toxic

I know more about what this problem is not supposed to be than about what it is.

Yes, over the past few years it does feel like the narrative keeps shifting. So for a long time it was 'gender dysphoria', a pretty rare mental health condition which could be eased with some form of 'transition'. But now it's not a mental illness (despite 'children will kill themselves if we don't allow them PBs and subsequently cross sex hormones' being a prominent argument).

Then it was the 'born in the wrong body' thing. That seems to have now been abandoned as well, presumably because its been recognised that telling young people that their perfectly healthy bodies are 'wrong' in some way is not something we want to be doing.

So what are we left with?

Am also curious with how this still gets equated as 'just like being gay'. There is no discussion about what being gay is - homosexual: you are attracted to the same sex as yourself. Being gay doesn't require you to change your name, change the way people refer to you and it sure as hell doesn't require medical intervention sometimes starting before puberty. It's totally different, I don't get how the two are in the same ball park?

I understand that it must be so difficult as a trans young person, or the parent of a trans young person, to try and make sense of what is going on with that person is feeling. But surely that is why blindly going ahead with full affirmation, PBs, cross sex hormones, surgery etc on a young vulnerable person cannot be a good idea?

As long as we are talking about fully consenting adults and the way that they live that life does not affect anyone else in any way.

Does the way you live your life not affect anyone else in any way?

Lots of people here going "well you can't expect unequivocal agreement" as though this is a debating club not a support board. Besides, those posters who post on here from a perspective of "my child says they are trans but I don't think they are and I want recommendations for a counsellor to talk them out of it" often get unequivocal support. Which is fine obviously - those people know their children better than any randoms here. I'm asking for that courtesy to be extended to parents who are taking a different approach on a support board. there are plenty of other spaces for you to hold your 'robust debates' about whether or not other people's realities are valid.

this is a support board. People who are further down the road with a trans child and are affirming them should be able to post in the LGBT children section without people telling them their child is just like Michael Jackson, or scolding them about how they are definitely permanently damaging their child. The "medicalisation of pre pubescent children" is waved around at people regardless of if their child is on a medical pathway or not, and apparently in total ignorance that in the vast vast majority of GID referrals, this is never even on the table. it's ignorant and insulting.

if you are not trans, no one is going to travel back in time and trans you. if your child is not trans, people should not be telling you that they are. these things have nothing to do with people whose children are trans, and we have enough on our plates without being a punching bag to vent your anger and resentment on to about something that is not our fault.

we also have no obligation to give people explanations. as demonstrated on this thread, and on the one Difficult refers to, people ask goady disingenuous questions, and are never satisfied no matter how much emotional labour they get back. Our children are valid whether you believe in trans identities or not. The arrogance and presumption, it reminds me of when women are talking among themselves about sexual violence and men rock up and want to reframe it as a "well I've never experienced this and it doesn't make sense to me so it's on you to convince me that this is enough of a problem for me to let you continue talking about it in peace" . They're not asking in good faith, they are asking as a tactic to stop people supporting one another because they think deep down that they shouldn't have the right to do that. it follows the exact same patterns, right down to the citing of statistically small groups (false accusers, detransitioners) as evidence that the group needing support are actually harming and victimising the population of people who do not need such support. classic darvo.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Why not listen to someone at the end of the road instead?

I am over a decade down the road of this, my child is now an adult. You have absolutely no idea what my child and I have been through, its not the same as you having some mixed feelings as a kid and growing out of it. I am at the end of the road of waiting, why won't you try to listen and understand that?

Your non event is absolutely not the same as having a trans child. Not even close.

@midgedude says she spent ten years as a transboy, but you think she has nothing to contribute to this thread?

@Nowayhozay

I understand that there are kids out there who identify as all sorts of things, I accept that a lot of them are confused and will eventually move on. Of course it is important that they are protected from doing anything irreversible.

However there are kids, teens, young adults, middle aged and senior citizens who are going through hell everyday because they are trans.

Without being able to transition they live a miserable life. Social anxiety , self harm and suicide are sadly common.

This isnt something that people chose, they are born trans.

My own DC has exhibiting trans behaviour from around the age of 4, now a teenager and has not stopped.

There must be a middle ground where everyone can be happy and safe.

Using misleading things such as suicide does nothing to help. The evidence just does not exist that people kill themselves because they are trans. People with gender dysphoria deserve to be supported with honesty and dignity. That starts with ensuring they are given facts and access to properly peer reviewed, rigorously tested health care.

“posters who post on here from a perspective of "my child says they are trans but I don't think they are and I want recommendations for a counsellor to talk them out of it" often get unequivocal support.”
This is a disgraceful comment to make; unless you can evidence it, I think you should withdraw it.

Is this a TAAT?
What's the other thread?

I haven't RTFT so the discussion may have moved on, I couldn't read the OP without replying straight away.

I am the parent of a trans young adult, and I'm also gender critical. The two are not incompatible. I respect people's choice to present as they wish and to do what they like to their bodies as long as they are adults, I also respect people's preferred pronouns.

However I don't believe that human beings can change sex and that gender trumps sex. I don't believe children should be allowed to make irreversible changes to their bodies and I'm against the use of puberty blockers. For what it's worth, my trans offspring agrees with me on this.

I also haven't seen any hatred of parents of trans children in general, especially those who follow a watchful waiting approach. I've seen a lot of concern for the children and young people concerned, and I've personally received nothing but support when I sought it on Mumsnet. There is loathing for one particular parent of a trans young person, and for good reason. I'm sure I don't have to name her.