horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

I have massive concerns about the anger, venom and hysteria against anybody who voices concerns about this.

I do find this ironic when you read the anger, hype and venom directed at posters who have the temerity to have a child who is trans. Newsflash: your children are not you, they will find their own way in life. Contrary to what some people seem to think, you can't make them be anything. I had a hobby I dreamt of sharing with a daughter - neither would play ball. I can't imagine I would have any more success trying to make them be trans.

Posters seem unable or unwilling to grasp the fundamental thrust of this thread. Parents cannot make their children be trans and for most parents it is devestating to have a tran child. All parents can do is offer unconditional love and support - or would you rather they cast their children out as heretics?

@outedbyfaircop

Famous, your entire post is just a rehash of points that are made on FWR (and chat, and aibu, and here in lgbt children) several times a day. Who is telling you that you ‘can’t identify as a woman without putting an x in the word’? Literally no one is telling you this, and if you think that they are i can only recommend you spend less time online. Pulling things like this out of your arse while accusing other people of “hysteria” seems like quite the projection.

They're my points and my feelings. If you think they're a 'rehash' then perhaps you can consider why so many people are making these points so many times? Just because they are not your thoughts and feelings does not invalidate them. Many many people are saying that it's offensive to trans and non binary people to use the word 'woman' and I spend a lot of time online because I have disabilities and a life limiting condition which means that a lot of my life is spent online, without online community I would be very isolated and alone, online communities are my community and if I'm being told that i can't partake in my community because I won't state 'trans women are women' then I am am being marginalised and excluded. It's unfair to force people into a way of speaking and thinking because another group of people doesn't feel its being given enough respect and airspace. Had TRAs not created this anti feminist / anti women, infiltrating safe spaces stance there would not be any animosity and we would carry on accepting trans people in the same way we always have. This forcing people to say and accept things which are unfair and unsafe is absolutely ridiculous. People have jumped on it and its become an emporers new clothes campaign. It's been blown out of all proportion and this is partly because people have decided that to be trans can be something as basic as a man in a dress or using a traditionally 'female' name, is demanding to use women's toilets, staying in women's refuges, demanding women give them intimate 'beauty treatments' when they still have a penis, and going to women's prisons among many many other ways of making it feel unsafe for women and girls. This is what has created the fear and animosity and when people rail against this abuse of safe spaces they are called bigots and fascists. It is not fair, it is using abusive and emotive language to oppress and make people vulnerable.

It's almost as ridiculous as making people feel forced to stop whatever they are doing and clap for the NHS every Thursday evening at 8pm or screaming at people to #bekind.

Extraordinarily few children are trans from birth. My mother, a teacher for over 40 years , met one child for whom this seems likely

Far more children experience this temporarily. If you would listen to the experience of others rather than hurling abuse of being dismissive then you might realise this.

I will keep saying it. It's my duty to children affected by this horrible traumatic condition to ensure they get the support they need . And that is not affirmation nor sterilisation

I will admit that I feel defensive when I see the numbers of people who are keen that children such as I once was are sterilised. That feels personal. What you scared of?

I Suspect that Parents can make children identify as trans with their attitudes , although it is more often a wider range of factors from society that convinces a child that is what they is . That's why being transgender is more common in some cultures than others

outedbyfaircop it is such a difficult situation you are going through. I have to admit I just don’t understand the issue of transgenderism very well but 2 of my children’s friends are trans and we happily affirm them as best as we can in the difficulties they are dealing with.

I very much believe that people are wedded to their identities by their system of beliefs and so it matters not a jot whether I think they can change sex or not because when they believe they can it is absolutely real for them and so that is part of who they are and needs to be respected as such. However I am very much, having been sexually abused myself as a child, very pro safeguarding and that is where I find myself clashing deeply with trans ideology and the inherent dismantling of safeguarding that permeates the ideology. In some circles, many these days, that is probably seen as transphobic of me but I make no apologies for holding that line.

I think the only way we can learn though is trying to understand others perspectives and see how within the social contract that we all live under that can include people as much as humanly possible. But the social contract is a negotiation among all people not a series of demands that one group makes that must be met absolutely and in their entirety.

If you would listen to the experience of others rather than hurling abuse of being dismissive then you might realise this.

You really need to be listening as well. My child's experience is not your experience. Your lazy assumptions about parents of trans kids parents is certainly not my reality, nor the reality of many of the parents I have spoken to.

I Suspect that Parents can make children identify as trans with their attitudes

You think we all want our kids to be unhappy in themselves and go down a lifelong path of operations and hormones? That says it all. It certainly isn't your place to be advising anything when you are coming from a place of blame on us parents.

I absolutely stand by my earlier point that the help posts on LGBT children is not the board for people to be coming on and laying blame or making the same tired old arguments over and over again. This is supposed to be a supportive place for parents who are struggling, not somewhere to vent thinly veiled transphobia and make political points and ask irrelevant questions so everyone can jump on the op when they don't get the answer they want.

Go have your point scoring sessions elsewhere, they don't need to happen on threads of upset and struggling parents.

I will admit that I feel defensive when I see the numbers of people who are keen that children such as I once was are sterilised. That feels personal. What you scared of?

What on earth are you going on about? You are truly clueless. Do you think parents want their children to be trans? Do you think they want them to take hormones, the longterm effects of which are uknown? Do you think they want them to have surgery?

Perhaps one issue is when I say children I mean adult children. My children are grown up and my family member came out as trans at 19. You cannot control your children and if you try you will lose them - even more so when they are grown up. You sound naive, blinkered and lacking in the hard miles real life experience brings. Maybe listen to what people who are walking this journey are trying to tell you?

Why not listen to someone at the end of the road instead?

Never said it was easy . Just suggesting what way you need to be moving . Moving with a child the wrong way down a bad road out of fear is wrong

I agree with MNHQ actually. This section of the boards is supposed to be supportive. It's not the place for a political or theoretical discussion. You know that OP yet you chose to start this thread here.

Perhaps it was an accident. Perhaps you hoped posters would treat it like a political/theoretical discussion and then get deleted by MNHQ? If it was a genuine mistake why not ask for the thread to be moved? Posters are well aware of the different sections and the different conventions around posting. But you'll know that if you've been here for so long.

midge, you are aware, aren't you, that the vast majority of children referred to GIDS are not prescribed hormones or surgery? while we're playing this game of "what if" I'd like to submit the proposal that you would have been among them, given that you are not trans. going around saying that people like me want you "sterilised" is not only hysterical and untrue, it's grossly offensive and it's the exact brand of transphobic scaremongering that mn has become renowned for.

@TheGlassBlowersDaughter

I agree with MNHQ actually. This section of the boards is supposed to be supportive. It's not the place for a political or theoretical discussion. You know that OP yet you chose to start this thread here.

Perhaps it was an accident. Perhaps you hoped posters would treat it like a political/theoretical discussion and then get deleted by MNHQ? If it was a genuine mistake why not ask for the thread to be moved? Posters are well aware of the different sections and the different conventions around posting. But you'll know that if you've been here for so long.

and yet it's not supportive, and people do bring their unwelcome politics and theories in here. that's kind of my whole entire point really. just a couple of posts up from yours you've got someone who is not and never has been trans saying that those of us trying to support our trans children want people like her "sterilised" based on nothing but her own suppositions. Do you think that that is helpful and supportive?

if you want to carry on attributing bad faith motivations to me, when I am simply expressing legitimate sorrow and frustration, which incidentally is shared by other parents in my position, and for whose use this board is actually intended, please carry on, but be advised that trollhunting is against talk guidelines.

Why not listen to someone at the end of the road instead?

I am over a decade down the road of this, my child is now an adult. You have absolutely no idea what my child and I have been through, its not the same as you having some mixed feelings as a kid and growing out of it. I am at the end of the road of waiting, why won't you try to listen and understand that?

Your non event is absolutely not the same as having a trans child. Not even close.

My family member is transformed since they came out as trans. From an unhappy individual who couldn't engage or hold eye contact, we now have conversations where they look me in the eye and engage with what is going on in their life. The happiness compared to how they were before just shines from them. That is how I know they really had no choice, if they were going to live the life that was right for them. By the way - they are a very clever person with a niche academic field and a wide circle of friends - the fact they are trans is not the most interesting thing about them, not at all.

@HeadNorth

My family member is transformed since they came out as trans. From an unhappy individual who couldn't engage or hold eye contact, we now have conversations where they look me in the eye and engage with what is going on in their life. The happiness compared to how they were before just shines from them. That is how I know they really had no choice, if they were going to live the life that was right for them. By the way - they are a very clever person with a niche academic field and a wide circle of friends - the fact they are trans is not the most interesting thing about them, not at all.

That's lovely to read, so happy to read such a positive post

My personal view is that there is no such thing as a single point of view in what you call 'the trans community'. Guess what, they are all human beings with their own ideas, drives, ambitions, dreams and loves. Not all gay people think the same. Not all white women think the same. Trying to cricitise a whole group because you don't like what some trans people say is lame.

Someone who thinks parents make their children trans are in no place to support upset parents who are actually living through this.

I'm not trying to silence anyone, but I, like others, are sick fed up of people using this board as a way to further their own activism.

You wouldn't go on to a thread about a child with autism having meltdowns and tell the parent your kid had some tantrums and you ignored it and they eventually stopped would you?

You wouldn't go onto a thread about someone having depression and tell them you felt sad sometimes and they just need to cheer up, would you?

You wouldn't go onto the pregnancy choice board about someone in an awful situation going to have an abortion and tell them you were a bit unsure about being pregnant but then got over it and had the baby, would you?

If not then why is it ok to come onto a thread where a parent is struggling with having a trans child and say "well I sort of felt like a boy sometimes as a kid, but my parents ignored it and I didn't feel like that anymore, however you must make sure your kid doesn't join clubs or go to public toilets because [link to one person who did something awful]."

As I said, a few weeks ago I stuck around on a thread to answer all the questions people ask, and I did answer every single one, I had none of my questions answered and was called everything from stupid to racist, so it isn't the trans community that hate reality, the reality I presented was simply met with insults. No wonder the trans threads on here are like an echo chamber.

My personal opinion about the black community is that they...

My personal opinion about the disabled community is that they...

My personal opinion about the gay community is that they...

My personal opinion about the Jewish community is that they...

You don't get to validate your bigotry by framing it as your opinion. All that tells anyone sensible is that you have bigoted opinions, and like sharing them.

As an aside, where can I find this trans community? how do I talk to it? who is the queen of it? (sorry, I should probably say monarch).

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult I remember the thread you are on about. You did amazing work. It might have seemed thankless but you helped more people than you know, I guarantee it. Your kid is lucky to have you in their corner.

I'm not trying to silence anyone, but I, like others, are sick fed up of people using this board as a way to further their own activism.

Yeah the FWR board is constantly over run with TRAS and MRAS yet we are not allowed to stop them because its a public board.....sucks doesn't it.

outedbyfaircop thank you for saying so

Yeah the FWR board is constantly over run with TRAS and MRAS yet we are not allowed to stop them because its a public board.....sucks doesn't it.

You think coming onto a board with worried parents of vulnerable kids for no reason than to further your own agenda merely warrants a "sucks doesn't it". That's actually disgusting, and shows that you really don't care about these kids at all, you only care about point scoring.

Glad to see you have shown your true colours.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Wind it in. You have quoted me but not bothered to also include what I was responding to...Nice that you need to be so under handed in order to make your point.

There is nothing disgusting about it and this thread has nothing to do with vulnerable children. It is just a way for the OP to attack posters she does not agree with while playing the victim.

I'm not trying to silence anyone, but I, like others, are sick fed up of people using this board as a way to further their own activism.

Yeah the FWR board is constantly over run with TRAS and MRAS yet we are not allowed to stop them because its a public board.....sucks doesn't it.

You think coming onto a board with worried parents of vulnerable kids for no reason than to further your own agenda merely warrants a "sucks doesn't it". That's actually disgusting, and shows that you really don't care about these kids at all, you only care about point scoring.

Glad to see you have shown your true colours

It really doesn't make you sound any better, but there you go

Actually it makes you sound ridiculous. I havent come on to a thread with a desperate parent asking for advice on a vulnerable child and said " that sucks" so stop trying to pretend I have.

The OP said she was sick of posters spouting their activism and their agenda on this bored and I agreed as FWR have to deal with that constantly and it does suck!

Am I not allowed to agree with the OP now?

Yep, that is definitely what you meant you weren't being dismissive and smug with your "sucks doesn't it" at all 👍 definitely not.