horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

[quote OldLang]@Imasoulman

I didn't mention men because that's not who the main demographic of MN is. I'm also not male. As a feminist, I advocate for women's rights. Centering males is in conflict with that so no, I don't do it. When men are at any risk, it's almost invariably from other men. If I must be accused of having a feminist agenda, then you must accept the same for the trans lobby. That agenda is putting children at risk from harm so, frankly, name calling and slurs matter much less to me than the safeguarding of vulnerable children and young people.

No, transwomen and transwomen and transmen are transmen. If TWAW were true, then they would just be women and not wanting protection of rights as an at-risk minority would they?

I'm disabled, I can't opt away from the physical reality of my body as much as it might convenience me to.

Having seen your more recent posts, the fact you allude to "genuine" trans people indirectly indicates the presence of a disgenuine population. Quite transphobic of you to suggest so, no?[/quote]
@oldlang
I was actually going to step away from this thread as I just seem to saying the same thing over and over, people seem determined to argue even when I agree with them.

The hair splitting over labels and phrases is boring and adds nothing to a debate.
You come across as intelligent and so I assume you understand perfectly that I am recognising the difference between "genuine" trans people and the ones who are going through a phase/jumping on a trend.
I am not saying one group is less deserving than the other but clearly there is a difference and the way they are supported needs to be different.

Calling me Transphobic did make me giggle.
I am Transgender, I have been battling these feelings and emotions for the best part of five decades.
Believe me I know what I am talking about when I say that Trans youngsters need appropriate support from an early age.
I live with the results of doing nothing on a daily basis, I can't bear to think of others especially in this day and age having to go down the same path that I took.
But of course you feminists know so much more than people actually living the life, so hey ho ........

Brilliant post @Nosleeptillbed

But of course you feminists know so much more than people actually living the life, so hey ho

Actually I have not once heard a feminist say they know what its like to live as a Transgender person but strangley we are told on a daily basis that males know exactlyhow what like is like to live as a woman.....

This obsession is being driven by older transitioners from what I see.

Yes, I've noticed this too.

@Nosleeptillbed Thank you for your insightful post.
Where are the autism advocates speaking out on this?

Autism research in females in general is sadly lacking, and no one seems to want to address the issue huge numbers of teen autistic girls becoming transgender

Your post really resonates for me, it's how I see my daughter but she has grown up in a culture that leads her to believe that her neurodiversity isn't the issue, it's that she is in the wrong body.

I suppose from her perspective it would be easier to "correct" her gender than to "fix" her neurodiversity :/

@Imasoulman
I am recognising the difference between "genuine" trans people and the ones who are going through a phase/jumping on a trend.

But how do you recognise the difference? Please please please tell me how! I'm actually desperate to know, it would help my daughter so so much! What's the answer? Several posters have asked you, you dangle that knowledge in front of us and I would actually really like to, need to know. So that I can help my child. Please share, in all sincerity.

@Iamasoulman

The thing is, you can't say it's a phase until it's over. Even if you say 'you feel like this now but you might not in 2, 5, 10 years' that isn't going to work for a teen because as a young person you can't look that far ahead. The feelings are real and complete now. So there is no such thing as real or unreal. The point really is that adults shouldn't be making things permanent for children/young adults by facilitating decisions that can't be reversed. Even 18 is too young.
The counter argument (by many) is that suicide (from these permanent changes being denied) is also irreversible... so you are walking on that knife edge.... I've seen on here evidence cited that the suicide risk is greatly exaggerated. But I don't know enough to comment.

A large percentage of the trans adults acting as advocates transitioned as adults so their feelings were already long held we assume. They argue that had they been allowed to make decisions sooner theyd have not been as mentally unwell. The issue with this is that the group of people who as teens/young adults felt 'trans' or different and did not later on continue to feel unhappy with their gender/themselves is course underrepresented as this is not in the advice and training... hence my point about the need to ensure a wider range of voices are heard. Saying 'i felt like I wasn't a woman/in the wrong body/ didn't confirm to gender stereotypes- but now I dont feel this way because I've made my own path/ discovered XYZ about myself or learnt to present how I choose - but I'm not trans' just are not in the debate. The debate isn't nuanced enough.

I'm very conscious that there are people especially within LGBTQ community who liken this discussion to how gay people were discussed as recently as 15-20 years ago... its a phase, you'll grow out of it, you're following a trend etc... so I am very cautious about going too far with my thinking. Which is why I return to my point which is... by all means tranisition to the gender you feel is you. Live how you please. Surely in 2021 in the UK this is possible?! But life changing medical procedures is another step again and rightly should be much further down the line. Testosterone(for example) is not a benign substance. In the same year (about 6 years ago) I had 2 friends of the same age (early 40s) have double mastectomys. The first woman had stage 4 cancer, the 2nd was ftm transman. Exactly the same procedure (disclaimer... I'm not medical doctor so that's presumed). Both knew each other. For the first it was devastating and I know she struggled to understand why the second person chose to do that despite generally being sympathetic to trans people. This has stuck with me. I've told my daughter this story (she was a bit young at the time but now a teen). Are either of those 2 people now happier. Friend with cancer lived and married their partner, trans friend became a trans activist and support worker. (They don't seem more or less happy but I am not inside their head).

Just wanted to say, thank you for your posts Nosleeptillbed. They are helpful and the points you make are very interesting.

I agree that young people need more acceptance and to feel they can be themselves without being forced into boxes.

@oxalisRed

There are so many positive neurodiverse females on social media at the moment to point your daughter at.... just give it a search. I follow lots myself but I'm pretty sure your teen doesn't want to follow the same people as an oldie like me!
I have an ASC child too... so it's been a journey of discovery for me. Moving outside of medical diagnoses and into life affirming positives is important to our family, but it's not easy. I can see parallels with parents affirming their children on this thread with trans issues. I guess its as always a balancing act. We can't affirm harmful actions but its not always easy to know what is and isn't initially.

Sorry when I said 'females' above this wasn't pointed as such...just a point that neurodiversity has until recently been quite a visibly 'male' issue.

Which is why I return to my point which is... by all means tranisition to the gender you feel is you. Live how you please. Surely in 2021 in the UK this is possible?!

Would that it were so simple. This thread has illustrated there is quite a lot of antipathy to the notion of trans and keeness to blame parents for parenting wrong - lazy assumptions they must have reinforced sterotypes, rushed to medicate etc. I think if we could be more accepting and open to trans identities it may actually make it easier for young people to live how they wish, present as they wish and take the time before doing anything medicalised. I actually think relentless negativety pushes young people to push back and take a stand - kids like to rebel against their elders, after all. I do wish the gender critical people could learn to tone it down a bit, be a bit more accepting of difference and accept that nobody has all the answers.

@HeadNorth

I see the GC people as offering an alternative to the opposite view in order to neutralise it from a safeguarding perspective but it doesn't always come across like that I agree (not trying to diminish either cause by saying that). I suppose the point is, that it could be in fact doing the opposite as you say, I'm sure it is for some..I for one have never liked anyone telling me how to live! However the law seemingly is on the side of safeguarding and there's now been several high profile legal cases which have possibly reversed some public thought more widely too...and ultimately that does trickle down. As it happens I've noticed a subtle switch to more pro-women's rights and intersectionality in my workplace after the last year or so which was the other way.... so we'll see. I think we have perhaps reached and maybe gone over the tipping point (whatever that actually was!?!) and perhaps it is now a slow slow steady decline into a more usual balance of things... (but also maybe that's just pandemic fatigue in general so perhaps I'm being overly optimistic).

Sadly I don't think poor mental health in young people is going away anytime soon. But I don't think we can predict how it will manifest. If I'm honest - and I don't want to be shot down in flames- I don't think this debate will be raging in 15 years time just like it wasn't 15 years ago. All of the training and inclusion drives etc may actually eventually serve to educate enough that its no longer an issue and gender stops being a talking point. To be honest its a bit like that for us gays..
everyone's like 'yeah you've got your rights etc so can you just shut up now and get on with it'. So therefore soon enough maybe only those who truly need dysphoria support access it as it becomes mainstreamed for others. So in that respect both sides of the argument may join .
Doesn't really help parents here and now much... apart from perhaps thinking 'hold on to hope'. I mean hope for happiness for your child.

I do wish the gender critical people could learn to tone it down a bit, be a bit more accepting of difference and accept that nobody has all the answers.

Where on this thread has 1 GC not being accepting of difference?
GC people are all about accepting difference. They believe that what you wear, how you behave, live, what you call yourself regardless of your sex changes nothing and if more people accepted that the need to medicalise will diminish.

We also don't think anyone has all of the answers we just dont think medicating children is the only one.

[quote oxalisRed]@Imasoulman
I am recognising the difference between "genuine" trans people and the ones who are going through a phase/jumping on a trend.

But how do you recognise the difference? Please please please tell me how! I'm actually desperate to know, it would help my daughter so so much! What's the answer? Several posters have asked you, you dangle that knowledge in front of us and I would actually really like to, need to know. So that I can help my child. Please share, in all sincerity.[/quote]

I don't have the answers I'm afraid, I wish I did.

I don't want to see any children go down the wrong path I certainly don't want anybody to have to live with the consequences of making the wrong choice.

I only have my own experience to draw on, which makes me believe that Trans people know they are in the wrong body at a very young age.
It's not something that just clicks in their head at 12 years old.

I completely understand the wait and watch approach, but that does not work if you do go on to transition.

Never having been through the process I would be fascinated to know how they arrive at a diagnosis

@HeadNorth

Which is why I return to my point which is... by all means tranisition to the gender you feel is you. Live how you please. Surely in 2021 in the UK this is possible?!

Would that it were so simple. This thread has illustrated there is quite a lot of antipathy to the notion of trans and keeness to blame parents for parenting wrong - lazy assumptions they must have reinforced sterotypes, rushed to medicate etc. I think if we could be more accepting and open to trans identities it may actually make it easier for young people to live how they wish, present as they wish and take the time before doing anything medicalised. I actually think relentless negativety pushes young people to push back and take a stand - kids like to rebel against their elders, after all. I do wish the gender critical people could learn to tone it down a bit, be a bit more accepting of difference and accept that nobody has all the answers.

I think there is a growing acceptance of Trans lifestyles especially with the younger generations.

Absolutely agree it would be great if young people could openly live in their preferred gender role, I am positive very few would take it any further.

Doesn't help those who go on to transition though, delaying treatments for them is devastating and has a huge impact going forward.

I'm not sure how both groups can be looked after properly. I think there needs to be much better diagnosis, is it a lack of resources or a genuine lack of knowledge in the field ?

Believe me I know what I am talking about when I say that Trans youngsters need appropriate support from an early age.
I live with the results of doing nothing on a daily basis, I can't bear to think of others especially in this day and age having to go down the same path that I took.
But of course you feminists know so much more than people actually living the life, so hey ho ........

Actually I do know more about the “appropriate support” being advocated for than you do, because I spent two years on what are now dismissively known as “puberty blockers” in my 20s. Let’s call them what they actually are for a start - menopause inducers. Sterilisers. A living fucking nightmare.

Those two years were the biggest mistake of my life, a mistake I am still paying for now every single day, almost 15 years from when I started them. They destroyed my health - I am in constant pain and have debilitating fatigue. My hair still falls out. My body has changed. I had to stop working just after I came off the drugs as even with reasonable adjustments I couldn’t function. My body changed, my bones are really damaged, I completely lost my libido - and I don’t just mean “not in the mood”, I mean I became literally asexual any any physical contact became repellant to me. And these are problems I still have, more than a decade later. And if you do any research at all online, you’ll find I am not alone in this.

And yet, when I talk about this, I’m accused of being transphobic or some kind of shill, despite the fact that women like me and including me have been speaking out about this since long before we ever heard the term “puberty blockers”.

If you want to take about your life being ruined, try losing your career, social life, relationships, sex life before you even turn 30 and having doctors gaslight you for years while denying any help whatsoever.

Thank fuck I had already gone through puberty when I was on it - I can’t imagine how much worse these issues would be if they’d started in my early teens.

So yes, I do know quite a bit about something being peddled as appropriate support and better than not “passing” and “completely reversible”, but I’m not allowed to say so because if I do I’m a transphobe.

@TammySwanSon2

When did I say I had more knowledge than anybody ?

I'm not the enemy here, if you read what I have previously posted on this thread you will clearly see that I want protection in place to prevent exactly what you have been through happening to others.
I have said that time and time again.

People have different experiences.
I believe that children and teenagers should not be given any medication relating to this issue prior to 18. Teenagers have lots of self doubt, this issue is in my view for the vast majority a trend , often those who continue down this route have many other issues, those should be addressed as they are the underlying cause of unhappiness. Further down the line many regret their action

[quote Imasoulman]@TammySwanSon2

When did I say I had more knowledge than anybody ?

I'm not the enemy here, if you read what I have previously posted on this thread you will clearly see that I want protection in place to prevent exactly what you have been through happening to others.
I have said that time and time again.

[/quote]
So what did you mean when you said that you want others to avoid the repercussions of “doing nothing”? What would be the something if it’s not this?

There are no safeguards you can put in place to prevent what happened to me and many others like me if GnRHAs are prescribed - some won’t react this way, some will, the medical community certainly doesn’t seem to have any interest in understanding why this happens or how to fix it. I am 99% sure that it has caused permanent damage to my pituitary gland including the PG’s regulation of thyroid function, but as it’s not a typical presentation of thyroid issues as it’s the brain that’s the issue rather than my thyroid, there’s absolutely no information, no help, no research.

It absolutely terrifies me that these drugs are being given to children and their parents are being told that the effects are reversible - how I wish that were true, but it’s not. How can anyone give informed consent when they are not given the information? Nobody ever told me I could end up like this.

I’m about to undertake a psychology conversion MSc with a view to becoming an EdPsych. I would like to undertake research into female autistic traits, the under-diagnosis of females with autism and the link between autism and e.g. anorexia, gender dysphoria. Obviously, I’ll have to choose a specific focus, but I think there’s an awful lot we don’t know.

@TammySwansonTwo I'm so sorry all that happened to you, and I hope you find some relief. Your story is terrifying, and it's not the first like that, that I've heard .

@Imasoulman I hope you manage to sort out your emotions and feelings. It may be a radical idea, but gc feminists might actually relate to some of your feelings, if you ever wish to share, or attempt to unpick some mental tangles, so to speak. It was never the confused feelings we had a problem with, but with the idea that attempting to "transition" is a feasible solution, especially long term.

I had a lot of internalised misogyny, social anxiety, a need to please, a submissive nature etc to overcome, due to my upbringing. My father is super masculine, and ruled the roost with an iron fist (until my mother divorced him, and married a prick). There was an incident when I was a teenager, (with a man I thought I knew), that means I have to push away sexually deviant thoughts sometimes (of the exhibitionist variety). My point is, to reach the place of contentment I'm in now, I had to sort out a lot of shit in my head first. I also think I might be on the autistic spectrum, but not sure what good a diagnosis would do now, after I've learnt lots of healthy coping mechanisms and strategies.

Everyone thinks GC feminists are full of hate. Many call us transphobic now, years ago, those same haters would have said we had "penis envy" or other such nonsense. Way way back in the day, we were accused of being witches. Some people still think most of us just "need a good seeing too", or are sexually repressed, homophobic, racist old biddies, stuck in the dark ages. Which is not true!

I read "his dark materials" when I was a kid. I loved the idea of Daemons, a physical representation of the soul, that takes on the form of an animal, that reflects your true self (kind of like the patronus in the Harry Potter universe).

"But suppose your daemon settles in a shape you don't like?”
“Well, then, you're discontented, en't you? There's plenty of folk as'd like to have a lion as a daemon and they end up with a poodle. And till they learn to be satisfied with what they are, they're going to be fretful about it."

18 is also too young. But at 18 you are legally an adult. In today's society you're far from ready to take on responsibilities at 18 as teen life is not as it was 100 years ago. Plenty of 18 year olds will have barely left the home and done anything away from parents., even those with less than perfect homes.. so deciding to make irreversible changes to your body at that age really isn't wise. I'm pretty sure they've discovered that brain maturity is much older. Puberty contributes to brain maturity.
I've had IVF. The hormones they give you absolutely play havoc with your emotions and personality in a really discernible way. So I can only imagine what hormones taken for gender do. Testosterone is very powerful. Its affects on men who bodybuild is fairly well documented...what does it do to a barely developed body. I imagine the feeling is quite powerful actually. No wonder people feel great and want to take it. I imagine it's like a little line of coke felt in the 80s! Anyway I'm not a medic and it serves little purpose to rehash this as its been discussed many times I'm sure...
I just keep coming back to the thought of 18 year old me, confused in my body, no idea of my place in the world...no idea i was autistic or that was even a thing... happily going out and getting off my tits of a weekend. Shaving my head getting tattoos and piercings, making my parents angry, raging at the world...and being really f*cking grateful that the worst thing i did was get a dodgy unlicensed cab on my own or pass out in a hedge... and I lived to find love and happiness and have children of my own from my own body that still worked and was mine. And realised much to late that no one is comfortable in their own skin they're just faking it till they make it. And autism is female too.

18 is also too young. But at 18 you are legally an adult. In today's society you're far from ready to take on responsibilities at 18 as teen life is not as it was 100 years ago. Plenty of 18 year olds will have barely left the home and done anything away from parents., even those with less than perfect homes.. so deciding to make irreversible changes to your body at that age really isn't wise. I'm pretty sure they've discovered that brain maturity is much older. Puberty contributes to brain maturity.

But 18 is to old if you do need to transition.
We keep coming back to the fact that we are talking about two groups of people.
Both need safe guarding and appropriate treatment, the problem is identifying one from the other

@TammySwanSon2

So what did you mean when you said that you want others to avoid the repercussions of “doing nothing”? What would be the something if it’s not this?

Sorry I didn't phrase that comment very well.
I meant that I didn't want others living with the repercussions of not transitioning early enough if that is indeed what they need to do.

Maybe I have been looking at this to much from a Male to Female point of view.
I am horrified by the damage the treatments offered can cause, I really do think its scary.

I also see how you thought I was saying "I had more knowledge" again sorry that was just a sarcastic comment aimed at a certain demographic in general, certainly not aimed at anybody who has lived the experience.

@TheLazyWitch

I hope you manage to sort out your emotions and feelings. It may be a radical idea, but gc feminists might actually relate to some of your feelings, if you ever wish to share, or attempt to unpick some mental tangles, so to speak. It was never the confused feelings we had a problem with, but with the idea that attempting to "transition" is a feasible solution, especially long term.

Why do you think that Transitioning is not a feasible solution though?
Plenty of people do

I knew from a very early age, literally my earliest memories that I should have been female. There was never any doubt I absolutely knew it for a fact.
I used to assume that one day I would be a girl, I didn't know how but I felt very strongly that it would happen.
Of course I had never heard of Trans people I had no knowledge of the concept, all I new was that I was in the wrong body.

I used to imagine that one day I would wake up as a girl with a wardrobe full of clothes and I would be the only person who knew that I used to be a boy.

Instead of that I was shamed and punished for showing any inclination along those lines at all.
It was only as I got older that I realised that I was not the only one out there.
Given half a chance I would have transitioned without a second thought