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LGBT children

This board is primarily for parents of LGBTQ+ children to share personal experiences and advice. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful that this is a supportive space.

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horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

403 replies

outedbyfaircop · 26/03/2021 19:47

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

OP posts:
HeadNorth · 05/04/2021 16:16

What they do not have the right to do is make me play along with it all, make me say their prayers, or state that I believe in God, or make me attend church or to make my children do those things either.

My wee granny taught me to respect everyone's gods - after all we have no way of knowing who is right, do we? Nobody is making you be trans, they are just asking that the parents of trans people are not looked at as moral failures deserving of judgement. For the record, most trans people are well aware they cannot physically change sex, so there really is no need to keep banging on about it as if is a revelation.

oxalisRed · 05/04/2021 16:29

I am a parent of a currently trans-identifying teen. I don't recognise what the OP is describing - I have personally found FWR to be extremely informative and supportive. I think innate gender identities are absolute bollocks and extremely harmful to young people (also to older people, but we've lived through those insecure years and are likely to be more accepting of ourselves now).

My teen is a "confused autistic lesbian" (yours may not be, don't want to assume) but I have no doubt that transgenderism, for my teen, is a product of that autistic confusion. Whilst I do not agree with her solutions to her problems, I do love and will support my teen.

OP wants this particular board to be limited to supporting parents and their kids, that's fine but support doesn't necessarily equal agreement does it? I can empathise with other people in similar situations but not agree that our actions should be the same.

Some parents of trans kids may find experiences like @midgedude 's demeaning or dismissive of their trans kid's experiences, but personally I find it hopeful because I am hoping that my child will come to accept themselves with limited medical intervention, if given the space and opportunity rather than a medicalised "solution".

@LangClegsInSpace is right to ask about ROGD and the huge numbers of trans-identifying teen girls, it's naive to not consider it especially if your own child is part of that statistic.

Lastly, I hate how every discussion, every issue concerning women and women's rights turns into "trans bashing" according to some posters. I do not see the transphobia (possibly individual posts, but not whole threads) - to centre women is not to dismiss or hate any men or trans-identifying people. It's about women. Full. Stop.

Start threads on this board for support, petition MNHQ for a trans board if that's what you want. It's the epitome of Whatabout-ery to consistently claim the FWR board is transphobic when it's not about being anti-transgender, it's about being pro-women.

Mugginyouleftrightandcentre · 05/04/2021 16:47

@HeadNorth

What they do not have the right to do is make me play along with it all, make me say their prayers, or state that I believe in God, or make me attend church or to make my children do those things either.

My wee granny taught me to respect everyone's gods - after all we have no way of knowing who is right, do we? Nobody is making you be trans, they are just asking that the parents of trans people are not looked at as moral failures deserving of judgement. For the record, most trans people are well aware they cannot physically change sex, so there really is no need to keep banging on about it as if is a revelation.

I respect all religions and peoples beliefs - but I still think religion is a load of bullshit. My non-belief in Christianity doesn't not 'erase' Christians because Christians do not rely on my validation of their beliefs in order to live their lives.

I don't look at the parents of trans children as 'moral failures', and I know that the vast majority of them are trying to do the best they can in a very difficult situation.

I also don't think any pubescent child should ever be put on off label medicine to stunt their normally developing body.

I think I can hold both of those positions?

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 05/04/2021 16:52

There certainly have been whole threads that are trans bashing on FWR.

I have reported countless transphobic threads that are started with no purpose other than to take the piss.

Thankfully MNHQ take them down very quickly, but you would be pretty daft to think the people who start and join in those threads aren't transphobic, even if they stick to talk guidelines in other threads.

Imasoulman · 05/04/2021 17:01

I am new here but I can already see the lack of understanding from many posters that would lead to the generalisations that prompted the op to post.

I do not understand why trans deniers, GC people etc would feel that they have anything to offer when parents are specifically asking for help to support their child.
You can debate the ethics, the safe spaces, and all the rest by all means but dont hijack posts from desperate parents looking for support.

Two things I am certain of are that unless you are Trans you have absolutely no idea how it feels.
Unless you are a parent of a Trans child you have absolutely no idea of the heartache and turmoil that is involved in making sure your child is kept safe and supported on whatever path is appropriate.

No one is suggesting that there is not a huge problem right now with a disproportionate amount of children particularly girls identifying as trans, clearly these children need protecting from making irreversible decisions. But we cant just ignore the genuine trans children who are suffering and also need help.
Please keep somewhere safe and non judgemental for these children and their parents

TwoBreakingIntoOne · 05/04/2021 17:11

What is a trans denier?
There is a condition which is gender dysphoria which is in the same cluster as anorexia. I don't think anyone denies it exists
Is a trans denier someone who thinks you cannot be born in the wrong body or something else?

Nowayhozay · 05/04/2021 17:35

@TwoBreakingIntoOne

What is a trans denier? There is a condition which is gender dysphoria which is in the same cluster as anorexia. I don't think anyone denies it exists Is a trans denier someone who thinks you cannot be born in the wrong body or something else?

Yes, my definition of a Trans denier is exactly that. Someone who believes you cannot be born into the wrong body.

Isn't gender dysphoria suffered by all Trans people?

Imasoulman · 05/04/2021 17:41

@TwoBreakingIntoOne

What is a trans denier? There is a condition which is gender dysphoria which is in the same cluster as anorexia. I don't think anyone denies it exists Is a trans denier someone who thinks you cannot be born in the wrong body or something else?

Nowayhozay pretty much took the words out of my mouth

JensonsAcolyte · 05/04/2021 17:42

But you can’t be born into the wrong body.

It’s nonsense.

You can have a condition that leads to to believe you were, but that doesn’t make it fact.

Imasoulman · 05/04/2021 17:47

@JensonsAcolyte

But you can’t be born into the wrong body.

It’s nonsense.

You can have a condition that leads to to believe you were, but that doesn’t make it fact.

How can you say its nonsense if you haven't experienced it ?

In your opinion how is this "condition" best treated ?

midgedude · 05/04/2021 18:31

You can't be in the wrong body any more than a disabled person is born in the wrong body . You are a complex mess of blood bones and brains none of which can exist independently , all fundamentally designed from your unique genetic code , and those things work together to make you

You can feel that it's wrong but physically you are in your body and it's the only one you will ever get

You need to try snd untangle if at all possible why you think it's not your body ... and that basically means understanding why you hate it so much

Which relates in part to how your body changes which is scary , and it relates to how other people treat that body compared to other body types

TwoBreakingIntoOne · 05/04/2021 18:40

Our brains and bodies develop together strongly influenced by our environments
Unless you believe in the existence of a gendered soul I cannot imagine which body part you believe is in the wrong place.
The term was used to describe how some people feel and not factual

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 05/04/2021 18:40

If a disabled person wants surgery or medication to align their body with what they wish it would be, nobody kicks off though.

Why can't infertile people accept that they aren't fertile? Why do they try and carry a baby regardless of what the medication will do to them?

Why do depressed people take medication to be happier? Surely being on long term meds isn't great for their health. They should just work through their feelings.

Why do people with kidney failure not just accept that? Why go and get a donation from a family member and put their life at risk too? They will be on lifelong medication and the operation may fail.

There are operations and medications to help all sorts of things, all of which have side effects.

Why say we can "fix" some things but not others?

Imasoulman · 05/04/2021 18:46

@midgedude

You can't be in the wrong body any more than a disabled person is born in the wrong body . You are a complex mess of blood bones and brains none of which can exist independently , all fundamentally designed from your unique genetic code , and those things work together to make you

You can feel that it's wrong but physically you are in your body and it's the only one you will ever get

You need to try snd untangle if at all possible why you think it's not your body ... and that basically means understanding why you hate it so much

Which relates in part to how your body changes which is scary , and it relates to how other people treat that body compared to other body types

Oh I see, you are talking about conversion therapy!
I'm not convinced that would work

Mugginyouleftrightandcentre · 05/04/2021 18:48

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

If a disabled person wants surgery or medication to align their body with what they wish it would be, nobody kicks off though.

Why can't infertile people accept that they aren't fertile? Why do they try and carry a baby regardless of what the medication will do to them?

Why do depressed people take medication to be happier? Surely being on long term meds isn't great for their health. They should just work through their feelings.

Why do people with kidney failure not just accept that? Why go and get a donation from a family member and put their life at risk too? They will be on lifelong medication and the operation may fail.

There are operations and medications to help all sorts of things, all of which have side effects.

Why say we can "fix" some things but not others?

What other situation involves taking drugs to stunt pubescent brain and bone development, becoming sexually dysfunctional and infertile, and cutting off perfectly healthy body parts, in order to 'fix' someone?
midgedude · 05/04/2021 18:48

When there is something physically wrong we may try to fix it

There is nothing physically wrong with trans people . Everything works. The surgery stops things working.

They think there is a physical problem but there is not . That's the problem.

Suspiciously like a mental image problem , similar to anorexia

We don't fix anorexia by restricting access to food

Imasoulman · 05/04/2021 18:49

@TwoBreakingIntoOne

Our brains and bodies develop together strongly influenced by our environments Unless you believe in the existence of a gendered soul I cannot imagine which body part you believe is in the wrong place. The term was used to describe how some people feel and not factual

By your thinking then gay men and women just become gay through their environment!!

Trans is not learnt anymore than homosexuality is, good grief

twelly · 05/04/2021 18:51

I think parents are in an impossible situation, it is very difficult but I do think that young people are manipulated by the media, this is a current trend and teenagers are the victims. I think any medical intervention should be banned at least until after 18, I think schools and other bodies should treat under 18s as their the sex they are.

Mugginyouleftrightandcentre · 05/04/2021 18:54

Trans is not learnt anymore than homosexuality is, good grief

Well, for a start, you cannot have the concept of 'transgenderism' without the concept of 'gender' which is based on stereotypes about men and women. Almost all stories of trans people, and particularly currently 'trans kids', feature anecdotes about little boys wanting to play with dresses and dolls being a sign of their 'transness'.

Homosexuality is literally a description of what you like, in this case, attraction to the same sex as yourself. It doesn't need any societal framework to exist within.

Imasoulman · 05/04/2021 18:57

@twelly

I think parents are in an impossible situation, it is very difficult but I do think that young people are manipulated by the media, this is a current trend and teenagers are the victims. I think any medical intervention should be banned at least until after 18, I think schools and other bodies should treat under 18s as their the sex they are.

Even the genuinely trans kids who are being tortured on a daily basis ?
We should be able to help and protect both

TwoBreakingIntoOne · 05/04/2021 19:01

Imasoulman
I suggest you do some reading around brain development. The human brain is very underdeveloped at birth. The environment impacts all areas of brain development
I don't know what influences sexuality and I don't think it really matters. When it was researched purely as a means to prevent people being gay or lesbian it was concerning. I am happy for people to have sex with any other consenting adult
We are all influenced by environment and norms. I have always wondered how the world would look if we grew up thinking either sex could be our partners
Norms change over time and place which makes innate gender extremely unlikely. Anorexia presented very differently in other countries. Its presentation changed once their population was introduced to western TV. Its fascinating reading
Kinks are different in different countries and can be influenced by the leaders. The most horrifying one of course is China when tiny feet were considered desirable
Being gay and believing you are the wrong sex is not the same. One is a reality and one is a belief

Imasoulman · 05/04/2021 19:04

@mugginyouleftrightandcentre

Of course most of the reports you read mention dressing as and playing with toys associated with the preferred gender ! Why on worth wouldn't they ?

I already said that this behaviour doesn't mean a child is trans and those children of course need protection.

EasterBunn · 05/04/2021 19:09

It's horrible on here and MNQH should be ashamed. Mumsnet, it seems, is a supportive place for all parents except those with trans children.

I also have had those conversations with MNHQ but it's like bashing your head against a brick wall.

Buttonfm · 05/04/2021 19:12

I agree @Easterbunn.
Hopefully things will improve over time, with greater acceptance and understanding.

Buttonfm · 05/04/2021 19:16

Also, just sending love and support to all you parents of trans children/teens, and love to your children too. ♥️♥️

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