horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

@Imasoulman
If you were living through this I am sure that you would have a pretty good insight into their true feelings.
There are trained experts in this field who would very carefully assess and advise.

I am living through this with my child, I have an idea of why they identify as transgender but the problem (as I see it, as other posters have described it) is that today's cultural climate pushes transitioning and medicalisation as a solution, which cannot always be appropriate.

Kids can readily access this "solution" without the in-depth "careful assessment and advice". If you believe that 1hr's online chat is adequate for any clinician to know a person, to begin to prescribe cross sex hormones then I must agree that we parent very differently.

I will not allow my young adult child to embark on a medical route (one that has so little research behind it) without as much assurance as possible that it is the right thing for her. Currently that assurance is difficult to find, because of the culture of affirmation; because the NHS waiting list is so long; because private practices are willing to take your money and affirm your beliefs with little assessment or advice.

I believe that if the law banned any medical intervention until at least 18 this would help parents.
I agree with this. I was talking to my 15 year old daughter about her best friend who is transgender. She confidently stated ‘the government is transphobic because they have made a law banning hormones for under 16s, this isn’t fair on transgender people, X knows he is transgender and that won’t change, and so why should he be denied treatment.’
In the mind of a naive young teenager, it was all quite simple. Which is understandable, as at that age everything is often seen in black and white. (Plus a lot of her information seemed to have come from ‘the internet’).

We had a chat and I explained about the reason why the law had been changed, about the effect of the treatment on fertility, that the law wasn’t intended to be transphobic but that they need to be absolutely sure a person wanted to go down that route, and that under 16 was too young to be able to make informed consent about such a life changing process.

I can only imagine if you were a parent trying to do ‘watchful waiting’ it must be really difficult if your child thinks you are transphobic for denying them treatment. Much rather they are angry at ‘the government’.

@twelly

Firstly, no-one need state their experience and therefore no-one knows each other experience.

We are in a situation where families, young people and parents are almost pawns in this agenda - the number of young people identifying as a different gender in my view indicates a "trend" which I hope will pass like other trends. The worry in this case is that unlike becoming a vegitariam, punk etc etc some of the actions taken in terms of medication can cause long term damage and in many cases will mean that these children/teenagers cannot return to their original state. Parents are in the impossible situation as they have to live with the rebellious teenager and tread a very difficult tightrope - of course they want the best for their child. I believe that if the law banned any medical intervention until at least 18 this would help parents.

I absolutely agree that the trend at the moment is worrying.
I said before that these children need protecting and should not be pushed down an irreversible path.

But what can we do for the genuinely trans kids who would benefit enormously from early intervention, waiting until they are Eighteen is to late, I dont know how we can do the best for both groups. I wish I had the answer.

@oxalisRed

Thank you for your post it's very informative.

I understand how difficult it must be to parent a Trans child in today's climate.
Over the past couple of decades the support and the ability to transition at a young age have gone from one extreme to the other.

My heart bleeds for the kids who really would benefit from early intervention though, as I said I dont have an answer for the problem, I wish I did.

I just want to make sure those who need help are left by the way side.

[quote Imasoulman]@oxalisRed

Thank you for your post it's very informative.

I understand how difficult it must be to parent a Trans child in today's climate.
Over the past couple of decades the support and the ability to transition at a young age have gone from one extreme to the other.

My heart bleeds for the kids who really would benefit from early intervention though, as I said I dont have an answer for the problem, I wish I did.

I just want to make sure those who need help are left by the way side.[/quote]
What do you mean, ‘benefit from early intervention’? What intervention do you refer to?
All women are at some degree of risk of breast, cervical, ovarian undermine cancers. Should we intervene early and have all these parts removed?

I’m guessing you mean life changing irreversible medicalisation. Surely it would be far better to support these children with gender dysphoria via talking therapies until they reach adult hood, at which point they will have the capacity to make these life changing decisions? There are many different reasons why a child may feel suicidal, and therapists support that switch a significant degree of success - not by giving the children what they want, but giving them what they need in an appropriate way.
Many teen girls hate the way their bodies look whilst going through puberty - I know I certainly did. Do you really believe a double mastectomy is the right thing to do to alleviate this distress? Or more importantly, do you believe a child has the full capacity to decide to have that surgery?

@Soontobe60

Yes when I say intervention I specifically mean puberty blockers, hormones etc.

These treatments are invaluable for children who are genuinely Transgender and are inevitably going to transition.

I will say this again, I do not for one second think that this is a suitable path for the majority of children presenting as Trans but there is a real need for medical treatment for some.
Its not fair that they should be denied such important treatment.

I don't know how anyone can watch mermaids training, Susie Greens ted talks or the Jazz Jennings story and not have serious concerns
Early intervention allows people to 'pass' better, to device others about their reality
This obsession is being driven by older transitioners from what I see. Many have children and their sexual function is intact so they are not losing anything. The obsession with hiding the real sex of the person forces them to live a lie. Why not celebrate diversity, allow children to express themselves in any way they chose and celebrate trans people as trans

[quote Imasoulman]@Soontobe60

Yes when I say intervention I specifically mean puberty blockers, hormones etc.

These treatments are invaluable for children who are genuinely Transgender and are inevitably going to transition.

I will say this again, I do not for one second think that this is a suitable path for the majority of children presenting as Trans but there is a real need for medical treatment for some.
Its not fair that they should be denied such important treatment.
[/quote]
How do you know who is and who isn’t ‘genuinely’ transgender? GIDS state that of all the children who present as GD, 90% of them resolve their GD by the time they’ve gone through puberty. Should we medicalise them all just in case they might be one of the 10%? How do we then support the 90% who are no longer GD but have been permanently altered? That’s not something that can be morally squared.

It still begs an answer to what is trans
If its dysphoria, which can't account for the numbers, it needs more research and talking therapies to start with like you would for other similar conditions
If its something else then what? And should we be changing society or changing the child

If we accept that changing gender is a need and a genuine condition which is a matter of opinion there are nevertheless far too higher numbers claiming this need - many teenagers and children just following a trend. It is impossible to distinguish which is which and on balance I think better to prevent any medication until a child. Evinced an adult at 18

@TwoBreakingIntoOne

I don't know how anyone can watch mermaids training, Susie Greens ted talks or the Jazz Jennings story and not have serious concerns Early intervention allows people to 'pass' better, to device others about their reality This obsession is being driven by older transitioners from what I see. Many have children and their sexual function is intact so they are not losing anything. The obsession with hiding the real sex of the person forces them to live a lie. Why not celebrate diversity, allow children to express themselves in any way they chose and celebrate trans people as trans

Its not about deceiving anyone, I cant believe that you think its that basic!

Children are allowed to express themselves, society is far more tolerant now than it was 40 years ago particularly amongst the young.
Dressing and presenting as your true gender is of course very helpful and keeps many people sane but its in no way a substitute for actually being that person

@twelly

If we accept that changing gender is a need and a genuine condition which is a matter of opinion there are nevertheless far too higher numbers claiming this need - many teenagers and children just following a trend. It is impossible to distinguish which is which and on balance I think better to prevent any medication until a child. Evinced an adult at 18

I agree about the children following a trend and have said as much many times.

Of course hanging gender is a genuine need in some people, that's actually rather insulting.
You assume that everybody who presents as Trans will go all the way to surgery, that simply isn't true.

I don't have the answer but those kids who are genuinely Trans really need help before they go through puberty.

I don't have the answer but those kids who are genuinely Trans really need help before they go through puberty

And how can we tell the genuine trans?

KB fell in to the genuine trans box but then she detransitioned and is now left dealing with the aftermath of the medical procedures she had.

Puberty is natural and necessary to a child's development. Why would you want to stop it?

Helping children deal with issues they have prior to puberty is needed - that help needs to take the form of holistic help. I believe that the current climate is not always holistic and objective, children often have underlying issues and in my view this issue is not the issue that should be focused upon

@LastRoloIsMine

I don't have the answer but those kids who are genuinely Trans really need help before they go through puberty

And how can we tell the genuine trans?

KB fell in to the genuine trans box but then she detransitioned and is now left dealing with the aftermath of the medical procedures she had.

Puberty is natural and necessary to a child's development. Why would you want to stop it?

For the hundredth time I don't have the answer to that.

Its sad that she went through what she did and equally sad that she will have to live the consequences.

Who wants to stop puberty ??
That's ridiculous, where on earth have you got that from?

Puberty blockers are used to "delay" puberty, surely I don't need to explain why.

@twelly

Helping children deal with issues they have prior to puberty is needed - that help needs to take the form of holistic help. I believe that the current climate is not always holistic and objective, children often have underlying issues and in my view this issue is not the issue that should be focused upon

I agree, assuming the genuine Trans kids can go on to get further help before puberty should they need it

Children are allowed to express themselves, society is far more tolerant now than it was 40 years ago particularly amongst the young.

I don't think this is true. I was a teenager in the 80s and there was so much experimentation with dress, style, make up, hair etc. Not just the pop stars like Boy George, Marilyn and Annie Lennox but the kids as well. It really felt like we were getting somewhere. In some ways it was far less tolerant - there was far more blatant homophobia and racism - but gender, in terms of expression (nobody talked about having a 'gender identity' back then), was far less rigid than it is now. I think it is much more difficult for kids now to experiment with masculinity and femininity unless they claim a trans identity.

Dressing and presenting as your true gender is of course very helpful and keeps many people sane

This is what I'm talking about. Us girls with our shaved heads and big boots were not 'dressing as' a gender. Neither were the boys in their floaty blouses and fabulous make up. We were all just ourselves, playing with fashion and it was all up for grabs. Very, very rarely there would be a boy who wanted to be a girl (I met one throughout my childhood and adolescence) but there would be no way for the child to signal this through dressing and presenting because he'd look no different to many of the other boys.

but its in no way a substitute for actually being that person

This is the desperately sad thing - boys cannot actually be girls. Girls cannot actually be boys. Regardless of PBs, cross sex hormones, surgery or whatever else. Sex is immutable. It's not kind to lie to children about this.

If children were allowed to express themselves a boy could act and dress in a stereotype associated with being a girl and not be considered trans
I watched 2 sessions of mermaids training and both would have identified this child as a transgirl

Puberty blockers are used to "delay" puberty, surely I don't need to explain why.

For children with precious puberty yes it is delayed until they reach the "normal" age then puberty is allowed to happen as it normally would. For children who are struggling with their gender identity it is stopped and in many cases is never allowed to restart.

The affects of stopping puberty altogether are very concerning dont you think?

Who wants to stop puberty ??
That's ridiculous, where on earth have you got that from?

Puberty blockers are used to "delay" puberty, surely I don't need to explain why.

Puberty is the period of development when your reproductive system matures. Almost all children on PBs progress onto cross-sex hormones. They don't end up with a mature reproductive system. It's not puberty.

There's also a huge load of very rapid neurological and psychosocial development that happens at the same time. The speed and scale of this development is comparable only to toddlerhood - the transition from baby to child. A child on PBs gets left behind by their peers, who are all going through puberty and becoming sexual adults while they are not.

You can't just 'delay' puberty and expect there to be no ill effects. Many developmental milestones need to happen within a certain time window or there will be problems down the line. Nobody would think it was right to delay a baby's opportunities to learn to crawl and then walk, or delay their language development.

So yes, I do think you need to explain why it's so very important to disrupt a child's natural development at such a crucial stage.

Haven't read the full thread so apologies if its already been posted, but I found this article a fascinating read.

"What follows is the introductory instalment ofWhen Sons Become Daughters, a five-partQuilletteseries that explores how parents react when a son announces he wants to be a girl—and explains why so many of these mothers and fathers believe they can’t discuss their fears and concerns with their own children, therapists, doctors, friends, and relatives"

quillette.com/2021/04/02/when-sons-become-daughters-parents-of-transitioning-boys-speak-out-on-their-own-suffering/?fbclid=IwAR0JkZMWR1l4ePwWQG1PKvbwZQm-jFwWufFdHOUKSZipIAnDY-Y2FuXzbK8

@Imasoulman

So how do you think ‘genuine trans kids’ are identifiable? And what do you mean by ‘changing gender’? Gender is a socially constructed set of rules that set out how people should behave according to the sex they are. Such as girls being sensible, pretty, kind, gentle. Boys being physical, rough, boisterous. Both are actually very stifling ways of being. If you’re therefore changing ‘gender’, all you’re doing is changing your behaviour. There isn’t a blueprint for how a girl or boy should look physically, so why the need to physically alter their body?

Puberty blockers are used to "delay" puberty, surely I don't need to explain why.

You can't 'delay' puberty. You can't stop time. The idea that they are 'just a pause' is disingenous bullshit.

A child will still get older, time will still pass, and by 'delaying puberty', the absolutely vital brain development that takes place during puberty will not happen. So you could have a 17 year old with the cognitive development of a 12 year old. That in itself is chilling tbh. As PP said, no one would ever think it was ok to 'delay' a baby from going through their developmental stages.

And that's without the fact that almost all children who start puberty blockers go onto cross sex hormones. So they never go through the puberty that was originally programmed into every cell of their body. Their bones don't develop as they should, their brain doesn't develop as it should, their sexual organs don't develop as they should.

This is the reality. I know it's horrible and any parent would give anything to be able to allow their child to go through the puberty of their choice. But they can't.

@Imasoulman

I didn't mention men because that's not who the main demographic of MN is. I'm also not male. As a feminist, I advocate for women's rights. Centering males is in conflict with that so no, I don't do it. When men are at any risk, it's almost invariably from other men. If I must be accused of having a feminist agenda, then you must accept the same for the trans lobby. That agenda is putting children at risk from harm so, frankly, name calling and slurs matter much less to me than the safeguarding of vulnerable children and young people.

No, transwomen and transwomen and transmen are transmen. If TWAW were true, then they would just be women and not wanting protection of rights as an at-risk minority would they?

I'm disabled, I can't opt away from the physical reality of my body as much as it might convenience me to.

Having seen your more recent posts, the fact you allude to "genuine" trans people indirectly indicates the presence of a disgenuine population. Quite transphobic of you to suggest so, no?

Sorry no rtft but quite a bit.
OP I'm truly saddened that there is nowhere for your child and you to go for objective advice and support. I agree this to be true. It's desperate. I'm hoping the tipping point is coming. But what will tip it?
It has without a doubt has been exacerbated by the toxic masculinity culture that pervades currently and is playing out in parallel elsewhere (male suicides, school rape culture to name two). But let's be clear, in the main we are talking about teenage girls mental heath. In a rush to affirm trans this mental health as a neurodiversity issue is pushed to the periphery. My view is that this isn't homophobia but also a distinct rejection by parents/campaigners that underlying this isn't just mental health needs but an actual neurodifference. The LGBTQ community also rejects this. So there is no honest help anywhere while people are on their campaigning soapbox.

I'm a 50 year old lesbian. I work in the public sector in Brighton... do you think I can speak what I feel these days? Even my partner disagrees with my feelings. Most of my friends do too. Most but not all. To be gender critical in my local community and in my career would be suicide. I haven't always felt like this. I have always happily supported the T. I know plenty of parents with trans teens these days and also some older transmen who transitioned well into adulthood. I knew them before they transitioned. They were all lesbians.
I myself looked trans aged 20. I didn't know it existed as an option for women. I wanted to be like a boy but I didn't feel trapped in the wrong body. I was actually quite confused and unhappy from age 14 to 23... lots of issues. I took a lot of recreational drugs instead then I grew up got a professional job and became a grown-up. I have tatoos I regret. I can cover them for meetings with key clients!
So..the thing that's happening now is that myself and my fellow middle aged female 'quirky ones' are all getting diagnosed autistic and adhd in our 40s and 50s. Hugely underdiagnosed in women- literally hundreds of us. Turns out our quirkiness was neurodiversity! This is why we were so confused and unhappy.
As an OP said several pages back. Common theme running through this is the teen girls who turn trans are rarely neurotypical. The adult transmen I know are not neurotypical (talking middle aged women not young adults...although them too).
The teens I know are not NT. Bit of a theme really about how people who think differently and feel differently make these things match in their head.
So its a big yes for letting people live how they want, present how they want etc... but serious surgical interventions and strong hormones with lifelong side effects... to that I can't agree. And I'm very worried. But can I say that in public anywhere...no....and the people giving the help and advice put there are the transmen and LGBT friends I know...so where is a parent to go to get objective support? Right now I can't see how any trans teen is going to get objectively pointed in a neutral direction when these things are not on the table. Where are the autism advocates speaking out on this? I've not found any because everything is about affirmation. So I go back to saying. Let people live how they please but don't let troubled young people make life changing decisions that are irreversible. Support their families and them to understand this by sharing the voices of older women who have been there and the voices of the neurodiverse community.
I hope those of you with teens going through this are supported positively and neutrally. And please look into neurodiversity and how it presents in women.