horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

Some trans people know thier own minds but the evidence is that many are not any happier post transition, with suicidal thoughts remaining

And the vast majority of children do not know themselves well enough to be making irreversible and potentially life limiting changes.

How you get from a bunch of people being concerned that people are suffering and being treated in a way that doesn't help to assuming those samepeople hate trans people I just don't know

I think if you read back this thread it is plain to see that the faux concern is a thin veneer to cover a real resentment of trans people. No one is encouraging children to make irreversible and life limiting changes, they are parents supporting young adults as they mature to make decisions. It is sad that those that decide to proceed on the path that feels right for them will have to endure such hostility - but should people try and pretend they aren't really trans to protect themselves from hate? I don't think that is the right thing to do either.

@ViolentFern

You are right OP, it's exhausting and every single bloody thread gets taken over by them so everyone else just leaves.

Yes, this.

It is sad that so many people are proceeding down the path.

It is scandalous that despite thousands of girls in every previous generation managing to navigate the difficulties , provably successfully as here I and many others can attest, suddenly we are medicalising using unproven methods.

If you want to view that as hate for the people involved, that's your choice.

I view the medicalisation as hatred for people like me. You want to change and harm us. The sterilisation that comes to many with their treatment seems pretty threatening to me. People often are keen to sterilise those they hate and fear. You are not interested in evidence.

midgedude for heaven's sake, this isn't about you because you are not trans. Reality check: the world does not revolve around you. No one wants to change or harm you, you drama llama, trans people just want to be able to live their lives without being told they are wrong. You want your life experiences respected- how about you respect other people's for a wee change?

this isn't about you because you are not trans

Where were all the trans children (especially female children) before around 2013?

Have there always been this number of children (especially female children) with gender dysphoria and/or a consistent, persistent, insistent belief that they are not the sex they were born? If so, shouldn't we be asking what happened to those children in previous years and how they have coped into adulthood? As I noted in a previous post, there are not large numbers of older women transitioning, so what happened to all those girls? Why are you so dismissive of the idea that some of them will have grown up to be women like midge?

Or is this a completely new phenomenon? If so, shouldn't we asking a lot of very hard questions about why this is suddenly happening in the space of less than 10 years?

I find the lack of curiosity - 'my child is trans and midge is not trans' and that's that - really alarming.

I support anyone who is trans and will always use preferred pronouns. I mean why not? It could make such a positive difference in someone’s life.

@HeadNorth
The only issue I see on this thread is that people are concerned about the safeguarding of children but are labelled bigots for this.
It’s interesting that you use the word “resentment”. What do you think people resent about gender dysphoric children? Do you really believe that children as young as 10 are able to make decisions that will impact their whole life? Any 10 year old I’ve met can’t even make appropriate decisions on what to eat on a daily basis, and I’m sure you’ll agree that a daily diet of McDonald’s can have a life long impact in their health,
A child who is clearly GD needs to be able to access good quality healthcare to address their GD, not to be placed on a one way track as identified in the recent Keira Bell v Tavistock judgement.

It's about children and how best to support them

And you want to ignore any evidence that your preferred approach might be at best unnecessary and at worst harmful ?

You don't want to hear from people who grew out( mostly ) of identity problems ... why exactly?

Surely you would want to know if you could learn from them how to help future generations without risk of harming them ?

you might decide that won't help your specific situation but I can not understand not even listening

I don't know any 10 year olds that are making life changing decisions - that does not reflect the NHS pathway as I understand it. My experience is of a young adult coming out and the liberation that meant for them. My experience is of parents providing unconditional love and support while working hard to persuade them to stick to the NHS pathway rather than get impatient and order hormones of the internet. My experience is of a trans person as an actual, real human being entitled to live their life in the way they choose, not some madey uppy 10 year old tomboy who never existed being experimented on in your imagination. Join me in the real world, it is much nicer and can be a kinder place.

You are dismissing midge's real world experience as being a 'madey uppy 10 year old tomboy who never existed'.

There is nothing 'nice' or 'kind' about that.

All kids want to be something different. Personally if you pushing your child into life changing drugs and or surgery before they can freely make that decision then you are guilty of abuse.
The vast majority of these children will grow and realise they are gay.
The drugs and surgery are just gay conversion therapy- the west is just catching up to places like Iran.
Plus it seems to be particularly fashionable amongst the white middle classes.

@LangClegsInSpace

You are dismissing midge's real world experience as being a 'madey uppy 10 year old tomboy who never existed'.

There is nothing 'nice' or 'kind' about that.

Because that poster is trying to make a trans thread all about them when they are not trans. I see no reason to be kind to a wearisome me-railer.

Where were the 'trans kids' before 2013 or so?

Why do some people get to be believed, get their feelings and experience respected and acknowledged, and others not?

My experience is of parents providing unconditional love and support while working hard to persuade them to stick to the NHS pathway rather than get impatient and order hormones of the internet.

You can buy all sorts of things on the internet. What should parents do if their child becomes impatient and threatens to buy weed or coke or an illegal weapon on the internet?

'Affirm me or I will buy illegal drugs online' is a terrible argument.

Where are the grown ups?

As I said, the grown ups are loving and supporting their young adult children and trying to prevent them buying illegal products on the internet. I am bemused you seem to be trying to argue with that approach. Do you not love your child? Do you not try and stop them buying illegal products on the internet? Where on earth is your beef with this?

Do you not love your child?

Giving in to emotional blackmail is a terrible parenting strategy.

This conversation has moved very swiftly from talking about 10 year olds to adult children.

Who is giving into emotional blackmail? I think you are making things up as there has been none of that on this thread. The thread has been about parents of trans children of all ages. My trans family member came out at 19 so that is my experience. I do not see there was any emotional blackmail involved, just love and support. What else can you do? Would you disown your child for being trans?

@HeadNorth

I don't know any 10 year olds that are making life changing decisions - that does not reflect the NHS pathway as I understand it. My experience is of a young adult coming out and the liberation that meant for them. My experience is of parents providing unconditional love and support while working hard to persuade them to stick to the NHS pathway rather than get impatient and order hormones of the internet. My experience is of a trans person as an actual, real human being entitled to live their life in the way they choose, not some madey uppy 10 year old tomboy who never existed being experimented on in your imagination. Join me in the real world, it is much nicer and can be a kinder place.

So you clearly have no idea about the ages that children are being set on the pathway to permanent changes then. www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075

Worldwide, children entering puberty are given these drugs. It’s only this year that GIDS have been prevented from prescribing in under 16s.

I don’t believe it’s kind to give children untested drugs that will physically change their bodies and have not been proved to alter their mental health linked to GD. But hey, only those people who actually know a trans person is entitled to an opinion I guess? ( BTW, I know several both transwomen and transmen)

It’s only this year that GIDS have been prevented from prescribing in under 16s.

That is good that safeguard is in place. Personally I think 18 would be better.

But hey, only those people who actually know a trans person is entitled to an opinion I guess?

This thread was about the voices of parents of trans people and trying to move away from the assumption that they must have failed in some way as parents, or made their child trans through enforcing rigid gender roles, or because they didn't want them to be gay, and all the other Mumsnet stereotypes. The point is that parents do not choose to have a trans child, but if they do they need non judgemental support to parent them through a difficult time to reach the best outcome for that young person. Sadly such non judgemental support is thin on the ground when it comes to trans issues.

"but should people try and pretend they aren't really trans to protect themselves from hate?"

At the end of the day, trans people are just people, and only "trans" because society is telling them that how they are now, isn't right, and they must change. They can't just be men in makeup and dresses, who sometimes like to fuck other men, etc, they must try to change their sex (which is impossible, and I think trying, through surgery, leads to a higher suicide rate?), names, pronouns etc, to be socially acceptable/live in some semblance of peace.

Why should I pretend to believe in gender, or that it's possible to change sex, to protect myself from hate? Why would either of those ideas, mean that I automatically hate trans people, when I think they're the biggest victims, of gender theory? Or hate their parents, lots of whom had no clue about this issue, until their teens or young adults confided in them, probably after already spending time in dark dodgy places on the Internet, and visiting their Dr (who probably had no clue how to advise, other than to refer them on elsewhere).

My questions about understanding why these kids/teens think they were born in the wrong body, were totally genuine btw, as I've never seen an actual answer to that question. If there is no answer, then surely that would be a place to start, research wise?

I'll admit, maybe some scientific breakthrough will prove pink vs blue brains, or some other explanation for this phenomena other than a quirk of personality. I'll happily admit I was wrong, if it happens, but again, there needs to be more research before that can happen. But TRA's and many trans people, don't want research to be done..?

I don't think it is as simple as men in make up and dresses - that is cross dressing, not trans. The trans person I know dresses like most young adults - mainly jeans, hoodies, hi-tops etc - it is not about stereotypical clothing at all.

I think it is hard, if not impossible, to understand if you are not trans, but that does not mean you can dismiss it. People are many things I do not understand - they still have every right to live their lives the way that feels most true and authentic to them.

People are many things I do not understand - they still have every right to live their lives the way that feels most true and authentic to them.

Absolutely. For example, I don't understand people who have a genuine belief in religion, I don't understand how they can believe that Jesus actually rose from the dead or that he was actually the son of God. But they have every right to express that faith and live their lives according to their beliefs.

What they do not have the right to do is make me play along with it all, make me say their prayers, or state that I believe in God, or make me attend church or to make my children do those things either.

I don't believe that people can change sex, I don't believe that men can become women, I don't believe children should be given off label medicine which messes around with their perfectly normally developing body. I should be allowed to declare those beliefs without having abuse hurled at me.

The obsession with passing is very sad and very harmful. It teaches children that they are wrong as they are. Trans is a poor term imo. Its too wide an umbrella and should be broken down. Clearly there are a tiny number of children who genuinely have dysphoria and they should have treatment for that. Properly researched, evidence based treatment, not that decided by lobby groups whose leaders are validating their own decisions
In the future I believe we will need, or should have, a law that compels a person to declare their birth sex in certain circumstances to prevent deceit. Requesting a female HCP, single sex spaces, relationships are some areas where sex should be openly stated

For example, I don't understand people who have a genuine belief in religion

Fair enough, but would you then go onto the faith boards where someone posts for help as they are struggling with some aspect of it and say "Well I think religion is a heap of crap, its ok if you believe it but don't you dare try and get me to believe it. Look at all the terrible things that have been done in the name of religion ."

Or would you just think, "oh there's someone struggling with something I can't help with, I'll just leave them to get support from those who can help."

We have to put up with the former on this board.