Land dispute

[zarah21]

Desperately need advice!

My dad died 9 years ago with no will. He had nothing but a piece of land co shared (as tenants in common), with another chap, let's say Bob. Bob didn't use the land anymore. Only my dad had keys. When my dad passed, Bob sold his half to Bill, via a "gentlemen handshake" and Bill quickly broke the locks, put up new fencing, felled the trees, tarmaced it etc.

My sibling never applied for probate, saying dad had no assets, also never changed land registry. Still in dad's name.

I don't know where to start....

Do we apply for probate to amend registry?.. Or could I still lose the land regardless, given Bill can now apply for Adverse possession? Would a land registry change to our names strengthen any counter claim?

Bill tried to give us £3k for the land. We declined, it's worth way more. We asked Bill to pay rent, he declined, he was already on the land, so why would he? He said we could try get him off land but the said he would charge us for the felled trees, 6k he said! We felt backed into a corner and have been sitting ducks ever since.

We are at 9 years now, and very worried we may lose the only thing dad had. We just never knew how to keep it without spending lots of money to get Bill off the land.

This is the most stressful situation. And it's. Going on for years now. Don't get me wrong, day to day living is normal, but every so often, I feel crippling anxiety by the weight of it all.

What can I do? Please help.

I don't think Bill can apply for adverse possession yet if he has only been there for 9 years.

Yes, you need to get probate so that you can deal with the land.

From what you say, Bill owns a share of the land. If that is the case, you can't get him off the land nor can you charge him rent. However, it isn't clear that he has any claim against you for the felled trees or anything else he has done to the land. The only way forward is for you to buy Bill's share or Bill to buy your share.

If Bob still owns his share it is a different matter. Bill is then presumably on the land with Bob's permission. You will need to talk to Bob to resolve the situation.

If you are unsure of the current ownership situation, check with the Land Registry.

How much do you think half the land is worth? Compare that number with the likely cost of getting probate and/or legal proceedings to secure half the land. What is the cost of maintaining the land - could you cover those costs going forward?

What I’m trying to say is that after 9 years might one option be to just move on?

No he can't claim adverse possession yet, but he's made it clear that this is what he's trying to do, so I'd first put it in writing that you wish to reinstate access to the land & are going through probate to sort the ownership out.
I would not wait though as he can say after 10 years that he has had independent use & try to get adverse possession.
I'd get to the cab or solicitor.
Do you have anything in writing that it's his (or yours)?

Have you had a proper valuation done of the land? If not, I'd get that done, then you can decide if it's worth pursuing.

"Do we apply for probate to amend registry?"

So the land is definitely registered and not unregistered?

"Would a land registry change to our names strengthen any counter claim?"

Yes

"Or could I still lose the land regardless, given Bill can now apply for Adverse possession?"

In that case you do not need to worry. Before the Land Registration Act 2002 a person could just occupy land for 12 years and then just claim it.

You can't do that any more with registered land.

What happens now is that after ten years Bill makes an application to the Land Registry to claim this land.

They then send a notice to the registered owner (currently your dad - so it's a good idea to get that changed). This notice then gives the owner 13 weeks in which to reply. The owner can agree to give up the land or can oppose the application. If you oppose the application then the Land Registry writes back to Bill saying don't be such a CF you aren't getting the land.

If you don't reply within those 13 weeks then Bill gets the land.

So, as long as you oppose any application that Bill might make in the future, then he cannot gain possession.

There is one situation though where, even with the new rules, a squatter could still gain adverse possession. This is where the squatter reasonably believed that the land belonged to him.

An example of this might be where there are neighbours and after many years they find out that the fence is in the wrong place, but they had thought that it was in the right place. In that situation, the court is likely to say that the fence line is now the actual boundary.

The good thing is that (if you have kept records) that Bill knows he doesn't own all of the land as he has offered to buy it off you. Or alternatively, just write to him reiterating your ownership of the land and that you will not sell it to him and keep a copy of this letter.

He can't have a claim for adverse possession yet - when did he offer to buy the land? You can interrupt his possession of the land at any time. Go in, put signs up, write him a letter to say that he isn't allowed on your land etc. make it clear that the land isn't being treated as his to the exclusion of all others.

Thanks for the advice. Could we still oppose any claim Bill makes if we are not the owners as per registry? (if it remained in my dad's name at the time the claim is made)

Me and my sibling fell out once our dad passed, it's tough getting info. They dealt with it all and I'm trying to convince them to go via probate atm.

I may have missed this bit. But is land only in your dad's name? Surely with no paperwork, Bill and Bob don't have much in the way of proof?

Bob originally wrote to my sibling, asking us to buy his share or he would sell elsewhere. We agreed. Time lapsed without any monies being paid. (sibling was unwell after dad's death, didn't really deal with affairs properly) Next thing I know the locks have been changed, Bob sold his share to Bill. Nothing on paper says this, but he has taken money for it.

I was geographically not close to it all, so out of the loop entirely. Got thr shock of my life when I saw a new fence and the locks changed. Letters went to sibling, not me. I haven't seen any, so unaware of time frame he may have given before selling on. Sibling and I are not on speaking terms but converse in email regarding this matter.

Bit of a sad situation.

See a solicitor ASAP- sometimes you get 1/2 hr free

"My dad died 9 years ago with no will."

"My sibling never applied for probate"

"Me and my sibling fell out once our dad passed, it's tough getting info. They dealt with it all and I'm trying to convince them to go via probate atm."

When a person dies without a will then somebody related to them needs to get "Letters of Administration" in order to deal with their estate. Letters of administration where there is no will are the equivalent of probate where there is a will.

You first need to check if your sibling got letters of administration. You say "My sibling never applied for probate", if you are certain of this it makes life easier but it is still worth checking here:

https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

This will let you know if your sibling has already been granted administration. If you cannot find your father on the above link then your sibling has not been granted administration.

If they haven't, then you can apply for administration yourself. The order of who can apply is first a spouse and then any children of the deceased.

You are a child of the deceased and so can apply for administration yourself here:

https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate/if-theres-not-a-will

You will then be able to update the Land Registry etc yourself.
.

"Could we still oppose any claim Bill makes if we are not the owners as per registry? (if it remained in my dad's name at the time the claim is made)"

Yes, and if your sibling is being uncommunicative then this would be a good idea.

There is a specific form to register your interest in the property. It is form ADV2. There is currently a £20 fee for doing this online or £40 by post.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/adverse-possession-notification-adv2

You need to fill in all the details of the property and your contact details etc

You also need to state in what way you have an interest in the property. You could say something like:

"The registered proprietor, [zarah21's dad] died intestate in 2015. I am his daughter and his ownership of the property has passed to myself and my sibling X"

So if there is later any application for adverse possession then they will contact you as well as the address that they hold for your father.

Thank you!

Okay, so link one is done, she definitely never had probate.

Bills 10 years is approaching fast, end of Jan 2025. So I best get on with the other two tasks, can I do them concurrently? Or even land registry first, so I can at least be made aware of any application of claim.

It is still a very old address they have for my dad, not the family home.

Many thanks

Honestly. Just accept the 3k, split it and move on.
Given the situation with your sibling and the complexity here, it all sounds more trouble than it's worth

We have no idea what the land is worth, so no way of knowing if £3k was a reasonable offer.

Does it matter ? You expected nothing from your Dad. You've got 1.5k. You can go on a holiday or buy something nice to remember him with that.
Land is rarely worth as much as people hope. Especially if it's not able to be built on etc.
You're not in contact with siblings, you'll need to engage solicitor. You'll easily spend £1k getting advice from a solicitor. It's just not worth it

The £3k offer has probably long gone. It was when he first moved onto land. In 3 months time Bill can just take it.

My dad bought it for £5k 40 years ago. It's large enough for a house, but dad always kept it saying the railway would buy it one day.

...

Time has arrived where the railway want temporary access to upgrade lines (not to buy, as he had hoped) I'm not applying for compensation, as currently, I don't lose anything, I'm not using land, losing profit etc so I don't warrant compensation. But Bill probably will.

So they want access, unsure if Bill is cooperating, but I guess he must be.

It's all so messy.
And looking at the link from Another2cats on applying for probate it can take 6-9 months to value estate. We'd be well out of time to change land registry before Bill claims land.

I'm at a loss here. Feeling really bloomin sad. :(

Of course it matters. If the land is worth, say, £50k do you really think OP and her sibling should give up their 50% for just £3k?

Because frankly if it was worth 500k both Dad and Bob may have done more with it.

Anyway get a land surveyor to value it then.

People always think land is super valuable and it rarely is unless it can be built on or is farmland or something. Even then look at the threads on IHT. It's only worth something if someone is prepared to pay for it

Why on earth have you left it so long???

@zarah21 If there's only 3 months remaining until he can just take it then I'd say you're screwed. You've left it too long

This. What do you want the land for OP?

"can I do them concurrently? Or even land registry first,"

Yes, you can complete the form and put it in the post today.

We've not been on speaking terms. They've dragged heels when I've tried to help sort it. They didn't turn up to a solicitor appointment I made. They have had a health issue of sorts, and they use that excuse all the time.

And ridiculously, I never even knew this 10 year ruling thing until just before I made this post. I was none the wiser.

Sibling went through a solicitor originally. Bobs solicitor wrote to ours, our solicitor said bobs solicitor shouldn't be doing what he is doing, but bobs solicitor was our solicitors son (seriously!) so he dropped us.

Forgetting money, can I do anything to stop bill getting his grubby hands on it. Can I give it away? Back to the council? To the train company?

The land was originally allotment land. I had "silly" plans to make it an urban farm of sorts, before Bill waded in. And a space to store a campervan.

I feel powerless. Sibling never let me do anything. I never even got the death cert when I asked for it.

What is the ten year deadline you are referring to? It's 12 years for adverse possession (and as stated above they would write to the registered owner first anyway).