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Being dismissed for gross misconduct based on nasty gossip

400 replies

Vossisdoss · 18/10/2024 11:39

Someone I used to work with, who has now moved to another department in the same company called me yesterday to say that she has been suspended, and they are investigating her for gross misconduct with a view to dismissing her.

She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system and also exploiting sick leave, by taking time off when she’s not sick. It looks like all of her colleagues have ganged up on her to support this. She said she can prove she logged onto the computer when they are saying she was on holiday (but they are saying she could have done this from Spain) and her sick leave doesn’t look too awful. She was signed off by her doctor for three weeks after surgery, and there’s been the odd self certified day here and there. Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

She’s worked there for twenty years and is so worried that she is going to lose her job. The hearing is next week, and she said that her colleagues have essentially thrown her under a bus - eg saying she came back from her surgery with “a Mediterranean tan” and “didn’t look sick”.

She contacted me as I used to be a union rep. I’ve told her to contact her rep ASAP before the hearing. But can they do this when there is no proof?

OP posts:
SquatWeightaMinute · 18/10/2024 12:46

I went to Greece while I was signed off sick, my employer knew where I was. I actually had annual leave booked which they reimbursed me because I was sick instead. (I wasn’t expecting it, I thought they would just overlap)

Not being well enough for work doesn’t necessarily mean confined to bed.

Radiatorvalves · 18/10/2024 12:47

If she’s British and went to Spain, she will have a passport stamp. IT should be able to confirm where she logged on.

years ago I had awful tonsillitis and sat in the garden for a week feeling grim and not talking. People thought I’d been on hols when I got back due to the tan!

SilverChampagne · 18/10/2024 12:47

ToBeOrNotToBee · 18/10/2024 12:43

If entering the EU from Britain as a British Citizen we now get passport stamps.

Ah…. Thank God for EU passports 😁

Novaavon · 18/10/2024 12:48

They don’t stamp passports anymore.

Yes they do. UK passports are stamped on entry and exit from the Schengen zone which includes Spain.

StopTheGreyness · 18/10/2024 12:48

She doesn't have to prove if she was or wasn't in Spain. You can go on holiday when signed off sick. A holiday can help with rest and the healing process - my husband went after a hernia operation, for example.

If the investigation finds nothing I'd definitely raise a grievance against her colleagues, they sound horrible.

spottedinthewilds · 18/10/2024 12:48

Yes the passport will be stamped!

ToBeOrNotToBee · 18/10/2024 12:49

SilverChampagne · 18/10/2024 12:47

Ah…. Thank God for EU passports 😁

See I actually love the passport stamps.
I'm trying to collect as many as I can before they bring in that visa waiver rubbish.

SilverChampagne · 18/10/2024 12:49

Novaavon · 18/10/2024 12:48

They don’t stamp passports anymore.

Yes they do. UK passports are stamped on entry and exit from the Schengen zone which includes Spain.

Fair enough. I don’t travel on a UK passport.

yeaitsmeagain · 18/10/2024 12:50

ToBeOrNotToBee · 18/10/2024 12:49

See I actually love the passport stamps.
I'm trying to collect as many as I can before they bring in that visa waiver rubbish.

So a few weeks' time.

yeaitsmeagain · 18/10/2024 12:51

It feels like there's more to it, why do they specifically think she went to Spain? Instead of just generally on holiday abroad? Or is she Spanish?

HesDeadBenYouCanStopNow · 18/10/2024 12:53

thinkfast · 18/10/2024 12:11

Surely your employer will have IT records to show the location that she logged in from?

How is that relevant, it's not an issue to travel abroad whilst recovering from an op, in fact it can improve your recovery if in a warm place with some sunshine

Fizzadora · 18/10/2024 12:53

SilverChampagne · 18/10/2024 12:39

They don’t stamp passports anymore.

.oops

prh47bridge · 18/10/2024 12:56

But can they do this when there is no proof?

They don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt. They have to genuinely believe and have reasonable grounds for believing that she is guilty of misconduct. That means they must have conducted an appropriate investigation and have sufficient evidence on which to form their belief.

If they dismiss her on the basis that she was in her garden and out shopping whilst signed off sick that would clearly be an unfair dismissal. As others have said, being off sick does not mean you have to be confined to your bed.

Similarly, if they are claiming she went on holiday when she was supposed to be at work, they will need more than vague accusations for any dismissal to be fair.

Terrifiedofthedentist · 18/10/2024 12:57

How would anyone know she was in her garden? Plus it’s literally her garden, that’s a total invasion of privacy and so what she was spotted shopping, being signed off means she cannot work not that she cannot do her grocery shopping.

surely the burden of proof is on the accuser, they have to provide evidence that she did these things?

with regards to a tan, she could’ve fake tanned and that’s just a proposertous statement in general. Again what is the proof she was in Spain?

Bumcake · 18/10/2024 12:58

SilverChampagne · 18/10/2024 12:39

They don’t stamp passports anymore.

Post Brexit, yes they do.

SparkyBlue · 18/10/2024 12:59

OP I think your friend isn't telling you the full story and there is more to this.

Bumcake · 18/10/2024 12:59

I have colleagues who’ve been abroad whilst signed off. It’s not a problem, they are not meant to be at work and can recuperate where they like.

Bubblybits · 18/10/2024 13:00

Sorry, but as an ex-union rep, you would be much better-placed to answer this question than random people on mumsnet. The premise of this whole post feels very weird. Are you the one who is being investigated?

babyproblems · 18/10/2024 13:00

She can definitely dispute it and it’s up to them to prove she is at fault. Your colleague should seek legal advice and/or speak to a union.

MyEarringsAreGreen · 18/10/2024 13:00

SilverChampagne · 18/10/2024 12:39

They don’t stamp passports anymore.

Yes they do since we left EU - we're a third country and you can only spend 90 days there in any 180 day period

godmum56 · 18/10/2024 13:01

My advice is to stay out of it. By all means support her emotionally as a friend and you have given good advice to talk to her rep but you only know her side of the story.

Ivehearditbothways · 18/10/2024 13:01

Before the meeting, she needs to go to her Doctor and ask for another note explaining that the recovery from surgery would include time outdoors, things like swimming or the gym to aid recovery, going to the shops and out for walks as part of getting her body back into shape and back into routine.

On sick leave, you’re allowed to do all sorts as long as it’s beneficial and not like… working another job or something. They can’t fire her for this.

vivainsomnia · 18/10/2024 13:02

Was she indeed in Spain or not?

Was it during the three weeks sign off or another time?

If another time, did she acted she was working from home?

Of she went to Spain whilst recovering, she might be ok unless she posted pics of her partying, dancing, snorkelling etc...

If she wasn't in Spain at all, it should be easy to prove.

If she was in Spain, supposedly working, but either she let others believe she was at home in the UK, and/or she only looked in there and then, or again, she was seen on the beach at 2pm, she might not have much of a defense.

Fraaahnces · 18/10/2024 13:03

Surely you’re allowed to be in your own garden when you’re on sick leave. Also shopping?

Megifer · 18/10/2024 13:03

Assume their company uses a VPN for her to get on the network so they can see where she logged in from.

The dates she's accused of being in Spain on unapproved AL (?) she could show she sent emails, saved files, logged in, Teams messages history etc

Being in the garden etc - can't see how this could cause her problems unless she said she was off with a broken arm and she was seen digging etc

Suspension seems very dramatic though for this tbh unless they are pulling a fast one and don't want her to be able to access emails etc to prove she was working. has she been taken off the network?

Have they given her any evidence so far to support their reasonable belief?