Being dismissed for gross misconduct based on nasty gossip

[Vossisdoss]

Someone I used to work with, who has now moved to another department in the same company called me yesterday to say that she has been suspended, and they are investigating her for gross misconduct with a view to dismissing her.

She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system and also exploiting sick leave, by taking time off when she’s not sick. It looks like all of her colleagues have ganged up on her to support this. She said she can prove she logged onto the computer when they are saying she was on holiday (but they are saying she could have done this from Spain) and her sick leave doesn’t look too awful. She was signed off by her doctor for three weeks after surgery, and there’s been the odd self certified day here and there. Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

She’s worked there for twenty years and is so worried that she is going to lose her job. The hearing is next week, and she said that her colleagues have essentially thrown her under a bus - eg saying she came back from her surgery with “a Mediterranean tan” and “didn’t look sick”.

She contacted me as I used to be a union rep. I’ve told her to contact her rep ASAP before the hearing. But can they do this when there is no proof?

Its been delayed again. Hoping I cross of Italy and Cyprus before its in place.

In terms of sick leave, the only thing I am aware of that may constitute some sort of misconduct is doing things that could hamper your return, for example you’re healing from a broken leg and go rock climbing. That sort of thing. If moving and being out and about aids recovery, that shouldn’t be an issue.

I’m not sure what kind of organisation she works for but where I’ve previously worked I’ve never known someone be suspended on ‘gossip’ alone especially for gross misconduct I’d think they’d need something to go on first while they conduct an investigation.

At the end of the day, if she’s done nothing wrong it won’t be proven and she’ll be fine. If she has been fiddling her leave and time off that’s fraud and they’ll have to take action, doesn’t matter who’s reported her it’s whether she’s done anything wrong or not.

Our passports are now stamped - British going to / from Spain etc

Assuming she wasn't on holiday in Spain, she will have been doing things in the UK, shopping, banking, talking to neighbours there must be plenty of proof. I assume she works from home, hence the she could have logged in from anywhere. But was the work she was meant to be doing done? If so it's pretty much irrelevant where she was if she did her job. In nice weather you can get a good tan in the UK and then there are sunbeds and fake tan.

Presumably the 'hearing' they've invited her to next week is actually an investigatory meeting and not a disciplinary hearing? They have to inestigate first, before making a decision as to whether it warrants a disciplinary hearing.

She should only attend with her union rep (and ask to rearrange it if the rep can't make the initial day and time) and be prepared to answer questions about her absence and attendance at work. She'll have a better idea about where her conduct is under scrutiny by hearing those investigatory questions.

Are you sure you’re getting the full story OP?

An employee of 20 years having surgery and getting signed off for 3 weeks with medical paperwork to prove it isn’t going to be accused of not being sick. Also doesn’t make any sense that they’ve said she was abroad but also that they saw her in her garden and out shopping. Which is it?

Alternatively if she can prove that she logged on at a time when they’re saying she didn’t then there’ll be no weight behind that either.

I’d be pretty sceptical of there being another side to this story that she’s missed tbh.

Gah the passports stamps etc are irrelevant. If their doctor, a medical professional, has deemed the person unfit to work, they are unfit to work. I have been overseas when I was on sick leave, and my work knew about it - being in recovery from illness doesn't render you unable to do things, it means you are not fit to work. Without a doctor's note, it's a different ballgame

Definitely take a union rep to the hearing, the HR of the organisation sounds atrocious.

Yep, Spain in June, France in July, Greece in August, all stamped. Will stop when they eventually bring in the electronic visa which has been delayed again.

This!

And I'd have thought you'd know that gross misconduct is often a case for summary dismissal, not a drawn out disciplinary process with various stages.

She can use her google location log (if she has it on) to prove where she was?

Depending where she works, a lot of redundancy warnings went out this last couple weeks in quite a few industries, especially banking etc.
An employee of 20 years would be up for a decent redundancy pay and getting rid of someone could save another employee, if they’ve all decided to gang up on her.

It is odd though. Because the complaints they’ve made really don’t hold much water; she didn’t do anything wrong going out and about while on sick leave.

I had mine stamped 3 weeks ago.... UK passport; into Italy, out of Croatia

Was she receiving full pay while off sick? If so, that's where going on holiday could be an issue. She might have been expected to take that out of her annual leave. But if she didn't go on holiday, it shouldn't be an issue.

Even with gross misconduct, they have to suspend you and then hold the meeting and allow you to bring someone along. Then you’ll be dismissed at the meeting. They don’t just call you into the office one day and dismiss you that day.

My son was gutted when he lost his passport in Majorca because he had 10 years worth of stamps from all his traveling !

If their doctor, a medical professional, has deemed the person unfit to work, they are unfit to work.

But people do need to understand that being "signed off" isn't a trump card.

An employer doesn't have to roll over and accept a doctors' note as an override of their own disciplinary processes.

Ignoring it may not be looked upon kindly in a legal case, of course, but it certainly shouldn't be viewed as making you untouchable.

Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

This is ridiculous, frankly.

If she has been signed off post surgery, part of that time before returning to work should be getting back on her feet. Pottering around a shop or getting a bit of sunshine IS PART OF RECUPERATION!

She needs to take someone in with her to that meeting.

Surely if she is signed off sick after surgery they can't dictate where she recuperates.

Found this:

Legally you are entitled to go on holiday whilst on sick leave. However the employer would be entitled to question whether going on holiday contradicts your reason for being unfit for work, and if suitable take disciplinary action accordingly.

And as for being in the garden or going shopping that's nonsense

Does she have a union rep?

Was in Spain a few weeks ago and they stamp at both ends

Yes sounds a bit suspect

She shouldn't just be able to prove she "logged on" when they said she was on holiday abroad, she should have approx 8 hours of work per day to show for it! I have a pretty hands off manager and manage my own workload without much direct oversight but they'd soon be aware if I wasn't actually working on a set day or not, just by activity on teams, replying to emails, and amount of work completed.

It's pretty odd to be so out of contact with your staff that they could feasibly take several days/a week off and you'd only realise they hadn't been working because their colleagues complained they had a suntan!

Yes they do.

They didn't get stamped when we were in the eu but do now we are not. I have stamps for the last 2 years from going to France but not from trips in 2016

Yes, but this would then be a capability issue, which would be a longer process of assessing if the person is fit to do the work on long-term basis following repeated ill health.

An employee who has 20 years of service and is signed off for 3 following surgery would not fit that description. Having a stomach bug/odd days off ill is normal, and dismissal following this would not stand up if a grievance were raised.

I didn't say that was the case.

I was replying to people saying [paraphrasing] 'there must be other stages/previous warnings etc.'

There's lots on The Citizens Advice website regarding rights and the processes and

This all sounds very intrusive. I had a tan face after sick leave. Guess why? Its called fake tan and i put it on to try and trick my brain that i was doing better. Get a life.