Being dismissed for gross misconduct based on nasty gossip

[Vossisdoss]

Someone I used to work with, who has now moved to another department in the same company called me yesterday to say that she has been suspended, and they are investigating her for gross misconduct with a view to dismissing her.

She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system and also exploiting sick leave, by taking time off when she’s not sick. It looks like all of her colleagues have ganged up on her to support this. She said she can prove she logged onto the computer when they are saying she was on holiday (but they are saying she could have done this from Spain) and her sick leave doesn’t look too awful. She was signed off by her doctor for three weeks after surgery, and there’s been the odd self certified day here and there. Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

She’s worked there for twenty years and is so worried that she is going to lose her job. The hearing is next week, and she said that her colleagues have essentially thrown her under a bus - eg saying she came back from her surgery with “a Mediterranean tan” and “didn’t look sick”.

She contacted me as I used to be a union rep. I’ve told her to contact her rep ASAP before the hearing. But can they do this when there is no proof?

The sick leave shouldn't be an issue if she has doctors notes.

There is no requirement for someone on sick leave to stay in the house, they can go on holiday or whatever as long as there activity isn't listed as one of the things they shouldn't be doing on the sick note. If for example someone was on leave for depression, going on holiday could be helpful in their recovery. If someone has been advised they can't work standing up in a supermarket because they've had their foot operated on, that doesn't prohibit them from sitting in the garden, doing some light gardening for half an hour or laying on a beach in timbuctoo.

How do they know she was in her garden and being in a shop means nothing? Heck I went to the Canary Islands when I had three months off sick. My sick leave was 100% genuine and I didn’t lock myself in my house in case of snoopy c*nty colleagues.

I too was recovering from surgery but I had extremely supportive colleagues.

This sounds very similar to something that happened to me a few years ago. I had 14 years service with my employer; good annual reviews, outstanding performance bonuses (£500 - it's a Uni!), etc. etc.

I went off for emergency surgery, so I wasn't really able to do much handover. The man who was put in to do my 'cover' cocked a lot of things up, and I was called for advice/direction a couple of times. Towards the end of my 4 months off, I went away with my sister & her family, to a cottage in the Highlands - where there was no wifi/very patchy mobile signal.
My boss was trying to get hold of me, and couldn't. Apparently it was urgent. I was OFF SICK.

When I went back to work, I was on a phased return. On my second day back, I was pulled into a meeting with my Manager, and HR. An account from the cover guy was presented that I had repeatedly lied, and also that I'd been well enough for holiday. I was suspended, for an investigation to take place - on the basis I had been untruthful. Never mind that he lied about me! My boss and I hated each other, which didn't help.

In the end, I was found not guilty, but I resigned there and then. I said I could no longer work with people without trust. It was awful. So, a cautionary tale, that it doesn't matter if the case is based on lies, you can still be put through all of that. I was SO grateful for the support of my Union Rep, so I would recommend them being on side from the off.

They won’t use “the case is based on lies” as a starting point, how could they?
That’s what the investigation is for 🤷🏻‍♀️

No, I'm thinking more along the lines of perhaps they're looking at gross misconduct on the grounds of dishonesty.

They may not believe the person genuinely needed to be off sick.

For the avoidance of doubt I'm not saying that's reasonable, if so, but if they believe it to be the case they may consider it gross misconduct and hence the employee could be summarily dismissed.

A "grievance" wouldn't necessarily come into it if they've already been fired, at least in terms of there being a legal obligation to hear it. Again, that may not be looked upon favourably by a tribunal or court, but that's not the point.

She was seen in her garden?

I would ask who was spying on her, in her own home, to check if she went outside?

Union rep as suggested, and could the rep ask to see the written evidence provided by the complainants?

What was the surgery! You can’t really easily fake surgery to management.

Yes they do if you are in a UK passport entering EU

If she was working, she can show the things she was working on / produced / did while supposedly on "annual leave".

I'd just make sure you're getting the actual truth here.

Is this actually you OP? I'd be surprised that you didn't know the ins and outs as a union rep of what happens

Just present your case factually and back it all up where you can

With a lot of surgeries you’re actually expected to move around gently - if you sit still for three weeks you’ll be screwed.

Going to a shop and walking in a garden would be the kind of mild daily activity you can undertake.

That’s crazy re the sick leave. I had a week off after an op and I was in the garden and dh and I went to local shops at the weekend after - I was advised to walk but not sit for long periods. She should call ACAS

Hell i sat in the garden with a duvet with covid!!!

If she was logging on and working while on holiday abroad, could it be that she didn't have the required clearance in place to either be taking her laptop abroad, or that she exceeded the permitted hours of work while overseas.

That's if your workplace has these arrangements in place, many do, I think it's for tax reasons.

I'm British and have stamps from going to EU countries post-Brexit.

Maybe I am totally in the wrong.
But if a colleague was signed off sick after surgery for three months (fine, no issue), but then was well enough to go on holiday abroad during that time, I would be seriously questioning why they were unfit to work but fit enough to travel to that extent. Admittedly I work in a desk based role - if you had a very physical job maybe that set of circumstances makes more sense... but even so, there are usually some light duties that can be done instead and travelling is relatively physical.

They do now cos of Brexit

IT permission - usually the risk is practical - that your employer hasn’t whitelisted your device for the country you’re visiting and/or they don’t want you working in a particular country. Spain isn’t a country most companies take issue with.

As a UK citizen you can work in Spain legally for more weeks than OP implies were worked, but some employers place a blanket ban on ever working from an overseas location (unless specific permission granted) so they don’t have to worry about tracking it (headache if HMRC gets wind of it).

Another shitty problem caused by Brexit, just had to get that dig in there.

Of course not. I'm paraphrasing 😣

I went from the US to Canada and asked him stamp it again so I could read what it said. He did look at me a bit funny.

I suspect a TU rep and deal with each bit as it comes.
If it's persons complaining about her rather than a boss it's a bit odd anyway.

Don’t know if it’s been mentioned but your friend can contact ACAS directly for advice. I know 2 people that did and found them extremely helpful.

I think there's more to this than we're hearing and maybe than the OP is hearing.

I don't get why a gross misconduct hearing would be triggered by random colleagues saying they've seen her shopping and in her garden. Surely if someone did see her (and what the fuck were they doing hanging about her house/where she shops, and in work hours?!?) and reported her, a manager would either stamp on that shit immediately, or be spoken to by HR, and would tell them that she was signed off?
Are colleagues being interviewed/invited to speak to HR about the investigation and that's where these comments about 'a Mediterranean tan' and how she 'didn’t look sick' have come from? Any HR department worth its salt would recognise these comments as a) demonstrating great ignorance in those who made them, b) useless for proving a gross misconduct case and c) potentially very hot water for the company.

They absolutely do if you're a UK passport holder. One of the joys of Brexit.

The company's IT support will be able to identify where she logged in from from the IP address. They'll have logs. I used my work phone to do work when on holiday in Spain and the authenticator app we use for MFA knew exactly where I was.

If your friend wants proper advice she needs to be completely honest. It's not a sacking offence to go on holiday if you're not fit to work. If that is what she did then she needs to not lie about her whereabouts.

I suggest you read some of the posts above. It's entirely plausible that someone would be well enough to do "day to day" things but not well enough to, say, commute and spend all day in an office. They may not be up to it generally but there could also be other issues that would make being in an office difficult (e.g. upset stomach).

On top of that, it's really not hard to envisage being well enough to rest on holiday but still not be well enough to work. In fact, when I was in this position my GP recommended I go on the holiday I already had planned as part of my recovery.

Lack of understanding and attitudes like yours are what causes the problem that OP's colleague has experienced.

You need to 'potter about' when recovering from surgery. You can't stay in bed for three weeks then leap up and go straight back to work🙄