Being dismissed for gross misconduct based on nasty gossip

[Vossisdoss]

Someone I used to work with, who has now moved to another department in the same company called me yesterday to say that she has been suspended, and they are investigating her for gross misconduct with a view to dismissing her.

She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system and also exploiting sick leave, by taking time off when she’s not sick. It looks like all of her colleagues have ganged up on her to support this. She said she can prove she logged onto the computer when they are saying she was on holiday (but they are saying she could have done this from Spain) and her sick leave doesn’t look too awful. She was signed off by her doctor for three weeks after surgery, and there’s been the odd self certified day here and there. Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

She’s worked there for twenty years and is so worried that she is going to lose her job. The hearing is next week, and she said that her colleagues have essentially thrown her under a bus - eg saying she came back from her surgery with “a Mediterranean tan” and “didn’t look sick”.

She contacted me as I used to be a union rep. I’ve told her to contact her rep ASAP before the hearing. But can they do this when there is no proof?

Do her bank statements prove spending in the Uk when they are claiming she's in Spain? Realistically they would need to prove the rumours are true, they must have some sort of evidence to be calling an official meeting. Unless it's just a fact find at this stage. They might just want to talk through what's been bought to their attention and if she can prove otherwise there is no case to answer.

It's become the passport thread.

And so bloody tedious.

Wish people would RTFT.

It's the same reply over and over and over.

I've been in and out of Spain three times in the last year and mine has been stamped each time. In and out. British passport. It has been everywhere I have been since Brexit.

I know! And we now know every bill, bob and their uncle who've been to Spain since Brexit 🙄

We used egates. We then still had to go up to a border control desk and get stamped. Both on the way in and again on the way out.

If she logged into her work account, your IT department will be able to know if that’s in UK or Spain.

I would imagine you don’t know the full story. I work in HR and people often ask advice, I don’t give it as no one ever tells you the full story and everything is so complicated.

If her employer has suspended her, it is quite possible that they already have the required evidence.

Very true

Omg ,it's so boring, full of posters wanting to be 'right.'

OP I imagine there's more to this story than you've heard.

Ours were stamped twice this year when visiting Mallorca and France.

If she was seen in her garden (which is allowed after surgery) and shopping (people have to go to the shops) then she can't be in Spain! So that proves that is malicious. Sick leave doesn't mean house arrest.

I had people complaining to me about a colleague off sick who was going on holiday.

Occupational health were very happy for him to go away, to help with his issues, and that was the end of the matter.

Because I was signed off for three months. Absolutely no one was going to make a complaint as I had a malignant tumour removed in a major surgery. The holiday was for my mental well being and not only did my office support it but they (including my boss) took me out for a lovely lunch while I was off. I thanked them and waved them off, my boss dropped me home and they all went back to the office.

It was a desk based job.

It's perfectly reasonable to go to the shops, and even to go off on holiday, if you are signed off from work. Recovery from surgery requires you to build up your activity gradually so of course you aren't going to be sat at home all day.

If she took unauthorised holiday separately from sick leave then that could be a problem but "working from home" from somewhere other than your normal place of residence wouldn't usually be a problem if the full normal workload is achieved. It would only be an issue if she was slacking off and not actually getting the job done.

What nasty colleagues though. She should probably start job hunting anyway because it's such a toxic working environment to have such awful people around you - she may then be able to launch a "constructive dismissal" case against the employers for failing to manage this properly.

Her manager must be rather shitty too because any reasonable manager would tell the accusers to fuck right off and mind their own business, not launch a disciplinary process.

Surely the employer can trace the IP address of the computer she logged in from and therefore get a location so that would clear up whether she was in Spain or not and if she wasn't in Spain then there is no case to answer here.

The sick leave of three weeks was covered by a doctor's note. So what if she was seen shopping after recovering from surgery.

It could be malicious colleagues or it's possible that there's more to the story and she's only told you the half of it.

She should get her union rep involved and be ready to provide evidence of not being in Spain at the time her colleagues claim she was (such as credit card statements with spending in the UK or bank statements).

Hmmmm sounds very inconsistent which is worrying for another reason!

If you’ve had surgery and your doctor signs you off for a certain amount of time I don’t think it should be anyone’s business where you are or what you’re doing in that time. For some people recovery could be sitting indoors knitting, for another it could be long walks, another it could be some guaranteed sunshine (ergo go abroad). If the leave is genuine it shouldn’t matter.

be ready to provide evidence of not being in Spain at the time her colleagues claim she was

Surely the onus is on the employer to prove she was in Spain? Or at least prove that she took unauthorised leave? Not properly logging leave is the actual allegation, isn't it, not where she was when she allegedly took this alleged unauthorised leave.

(And yes, all these passport stamp posts are just tedious derailing.)

Rude!

The company are perfectly entitled to investigate allegations against any employee.
Encouraging op to raise a grievance is just stupid. This person hasn’t been threatened with dismissal.

So true at how the thread just becomes one long 'cancel the cheque' type thing as poster after poster wangs on about bloody passports. WHO CARES

Now we’re not in the eu it’s easy to show if she wasn’t in Spain as her passport won’t be stamped. Of course shopping and pottering in the garden can be done while recovering from an op

I'm surprised any company would go straight to suspension on this, we only suspend someone if they are considered a risk to the business but I suppose every company has their own way of doing it.

Also you can't investigate someone 'with a view to dismiss'. You cannot decide an outcome before the full investigation and disciplinary process has been followed. What does it say in her suspension letter? If it just says that dismissal is a possible outcome (as well as the possibility of no further action or a lesser sanction), they have to say that.

As someone up thread says, they don't have to prove anything, it's not a court of law, they just have to have a reasonable belief so don't let your friend think that because they can't prove it they can't do anything.

Your friend would be wise to gather all her supporting evidence to defend herself, make some notes of what points she wants to get across etc especially if she is someone who might get flustered under pressure and forget.

What kind of surgery was it? I'd be tempted to go in there and show them my stitches if they didn't believe I'd actually had surgery.

Yes they do!

Oh, stop it. I addressed that hours ago.

Um, I have, in Granada last winter.