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Legal matters

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In-laws seeking legal right to access our children

349 replies

GoldPombear · 19/09/2024 10:39

So, my in-laws are very difficult people. We have tried hard to maintain a positive relationship with them and there are bad times and more manageable times. But they essentially always cause me anxiety and cause my husband great upset and mental health breakdowns (he has generalised anxiety disorder). We have three children, and since our engagement, and then first pregnancy, the bad times have got worse.

More recently, things have been more settled, so we had been seeing them more (they live 130 miles away). However, they were/ are emotionally abusive and were physically abusive towards my husband in the past. So they don't have unsupervised contact with our three children (all under 6). (There is one exception, when our son was small we went to a funeral and they looked after him nearby while we were in the church service). However, we can never do enough, we are never in the right, they are very controlling and are incredibly entitled in relation to our children. When they have these horrible outbursts, they never apologise, they blame us and then start throwing money at the situation, bug presents etc. However, they haven't directly done anything to harm or upset our children, if they did it would be clear cut.

Out of the blue, they told us that they had met with a solicitor to get access to our children. I can't explain the visceral impact of hearing this. I do not trust them but I never thought they could stoop this low. Reading online it doesn't seem to say they have much of a case, though they have a lot of money they could throw at the situation if they wanted to. They seem to be seeking contact without us, but again I don't think this would be granted. Anyway, we suspect they have been told to sort the relationship with us, as they brought up going to mediation.

I think I'm asking what other people would do? I can't see how the relationship can be repaired from this and I'm not sure I want it to be repaired. But they aren't my parents and my husband is understandably very confused.

If the legal advice had told them they had a good case, I suspect they would have proceeded and we would have had a letter in the post. But now they haven't got the answer they wanted.

Would other people try and maintain this relationship? Or is all trust broken? I know they are relatives, but they have caused so much pain and stress and unnecessary drama ovet all the years i have known them, that I can't see much benefit for my children for us to continue this relationship......

OP posts:
Supperlite · 19/09/2024 15:20

Dearg · 19/09/2024 10:53

They sound awful. Their lawyer should have told them they have no ‘rights’, so don’t expect to receive any letters.

Personally I would cut contact entirely.

If you feel it may go further, ask your husband to document the abuse he suffered, in a ‘to whom it may concern’ style and lodge it with your wills. If you have not done so already, please nominate a guardian/ guardians for your children in the event of such being needed.

This latter section about appointing a guardian(s) and including this letter with your wills feels to be incredibly good advice and extremely important.

RisingSunn · 19/09/2024 15:24

They have just shown you how sinister they can be.
I would take this a warning and cut all contact, change numbers/block etc.

stichguru · 19/09/2024 15:25

Where they are, your children are not. Ever. Forever.

icouldholditwithacobweb · 19/09/2024 15:29

I'd go NC.

People love to go on about their rights, but what about their responsibilities? That's the flip side of that coin. The fact is, they have responsibilities as parents and grandparents that they are not prepared to make an effort to meet. All they have to do is choose to show up for you and your family as loving, non-critical, non-abusive people and you'd likely happily facilitate your children having a relationship with them (with appropriate boundaries like not seing them alone gven the history of abuse). But instead, they choose to seek access to your children with force and with zero intention of modifying their behaviour in accordance to your very reasonable feedback. So no. They get nothing except excluded from your lives permanently. They have no intention of seeing things from your perspective, changing who they are, or doing what's best for your children. They are not going to change. You do not need them in your lives.

SerafinasGoose · 19/09/2024 15:33

Fraaahnces · 19/09/2024 15:20

My guess is that they haven’t actually consulted a solicitor. (No solicitor worth their salt would touch this with a barge pole). In fact, if challenged in front of wider family/friends, they would deny that they ever sent anything. I would absolutely consider this a threat and act on this accordingly. I would seek out a solicitor of my own and get something like a cease and desist letter that also makes it very clear that their statement about having seen a solicitor to gain access to your children, is a threat you take seriously and will not tolerate. You consider any future contact with you or your family to be vexatious harrassment and you do not wish to have them contacting you or your children or any other members of your family also that you will press charges if you hear from them.

Individuals cannot 'press charges'. Only the CPS bring charges in any criminal case, and it's most unlikely that they would charge the in-laws in this situation (with what?)

OP, be very careful about accepting the advice of Mumsnetters on legal matters. Seek advice from your own solicitor: it's worth it for your own peace of mind.

Doublesidedstickytape · 19/09/2024 15:39

I would cut contact and block them at this point. They’ve effectively broken trust .

S0CKPUPPET · 19/09/2024 15:50

I have a close friend who was in a similar situation to you. Their in-laws case was equally as hopeless as yours. Everyone they spoke to about it said they had no chance – just the same as you.

However the problem was that it took them about £20,000 and two years out their lives to get through the court process. At the end of this they finally got in front of a decisionmaker who said “ this is nonsense. I am if you want a relationship with the children, go and mend the bridges you have burned with the children’ parents “.

so yes, your in-laws main objective maybe to see the children unsupervised and without your consent. However, their secondary objective may be to abuse you through the legal process, as a punishment for not doing what they want.

The problem is that rich and plausible people can use the law to do this against people of modest means.

What happens in my friends Children’s case was that they were months of exchanges of letters between solicitors, which ran up the bills, lots of reports requested from various experts for which the children’s parents had to give access and take time off work to have meetings.

The In laws reported them to social services so there was an investigation. Social workers who are apparently too busy to investigate actual cases of abuse seemed to have plenty time for lots of visits , always in the day of course and so both parents had to use up their annual leave .

Social workers also demanded that the children were kept off school for these visits , otherwise they would attend the school to see them .

Then they requested reports from the GP, the school and the nursery.

During these SW visits, the parents had to pretend to be 100% happy with everything that was going on. As soon as The expressed even the slightest concern, this apparently was a HUGE red flags because the social workers had decided that anyone who doesn’t enjoy their visit is obviously hiding something and is probably abusive.

There were many prehearings in court at which either the case didn’t call or it did call but the other party's solicitors hadn’t turned up. Or the other party’s solicitor had turned up but didn’t have the necessary documents . So the case was postponed to another date a few months hence. This is why it dragged on for about two years .

So my advice is that you don’t instruct a solicitors right now, otherwise you lose control as the two lawyers just send endless emails to each other, run up bills and waste time.

I advise that you DO go to mediation. Don’t see this is a way of potentially giving the in-laws access to your children. See it as a means of delaying or possibly preventing legal action. Even if you can’t prevent it, you can use the process to show that you have been reasonable and corporative and also possibly to find out exactly what your in-laws want and what their main arguments are.

You dont have to go and sit in a room with them and discuss things. You can ask for shuffle mediation, where they are in one room you’re in another and the mediator goes between you. You can say this is for your husbands mental health.

remember it’s mediation and not therapy. Don’t pour out to the mediator how you’re feeling and how awful they have been. It’s understandable that you might want to do this but it’s not helpful . You have to speak all the time about the children and what is in their best interest.

Your bottom line needs to be that the relationship between yourselves and your in-laws has irretrievably broken down ( partly because of their behaviour over the years and now because of this legal threat ) and therefore it’s impossible to see how it’s in your children interest to have a relationship with the in-laws without you. Of course, when the children are adults and in a position to decide for themselves, you will support them in whatever they decide if they wish to have a relationship with the grandparents.

Maybe you want to offer some sort of non face to face contact, like the exchange of cards at birthdays and Christmas . Or perhaps a zoom call twice a year - this is a good one to offer if your kids are small as they will get bored after 5 mins. Id not offer to allow IL to send gifts as this has been abused in the past.

You may want to suggest they put money in a bank account which YOU hold in trust for the children as they will almost certainly refuse that. you want to offer things that you can agree to without too much stress, it doesn’t matter if they refuse .

your husband should tell the mediator about the abuse that he suffered as a child. I know that this may possibly be very distressing for him but he doesn’t really have an option now, I’m afraid. Not the details, but he needs to say how they were physically/ emotionally abusive and how they are still trying to control him as adult.

I think if you don’t mention this now, it might look less plausible if you literally mention it in court. But I know it’s not easy . You can ask the mediator to keep some things confidential.

you can explain that because of this history of abuse, you had tried to find some compromise with the in-laws to let them see the children under your supervision. You had thought that they might have changed and that you could keep your children safe, but sadly this is proved not to be the case and you realise that you made a mistake to even try this . You were only trying to give your children the opportunity to have some limited but positive relationship with their grandparents but you now realise that this can’t happen , which is very sad for your children. That’s is not about the Gp wishes , it’s about the children’s welfare.

jellybe · 19/09/2024 15:51

Grey rock. Ignore them, go no contact and let them waste their money on a solicitor as they have no legal right to have in supervised access to your children.

S0CKPUPPET · 19/09/2024 15:53

Oh, and ignore the people who say that no decent lawyer would take on this case.

That’s nonsense I’m afraid . Remember the solicitor has only heard their side of the story and there are many solicitors who will pursue this type of case for years , running up the fees, even though they know it’s completely hopeless.

its possible that a Solicitor may have told your in-laws that their case is hopeless but the in-laws want to proceed anyway. Remember the lawyers act on instructions from their clients.

Anonanonandon · 19/09/2024 15:55

I think, as pp have said, and you yourself have surmised, the law is not on their side.

My DD had a similar experience with her in laws wanting you take her young daughter out 'unsupervised' when they had previously only had contact with her parents present. My understanding is that her ILs were advised that they had to demonstrate a substantial involvement with the child before they would permitted to go to court; that the law only supports grandparents who previously had substantial involvement with the care of the children, such as providing regular child care and this contact is then withdrawn.

In one of your earlier posts did you suggest that your ILs want to take them away? Speaking as a grandparent, who does have substantial contact with her grandchildren I find that , much as I love them and they love me (I hope!) young children are not good at being away from their parents for any length of time.

Like you I would be very wary going forward.

GoldPombear · 19/09/2024 16:20

REP22 · 19/09/2024 13:46

I am so sorry you're having to deal with this. I agree with others, cut all contact and block them on all media. They sound poisonous and will only cause further harm. That doesn't make you a bad person, even though you may feel guilty for a bit. Your children (and you and your DH) need to be protected from these people.

Have you ever come across the Stately Homes threads on MN? They are a safe, helpful, kind and wise place for people with problematic or toxic relatives. Some of the advice there (latest here: August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes! | Mumsnet) might also be helpful.

Best wishes to you for a happier future. x

Thank you. I'm new to mumsnet. I'll take a look there x

OP posts:
EducatingArti · 19/09/2024 16:21

I find the attitude about seeking unsupervised contact with the children really bizarre.
I'm not a grandparent but have a very grandmotherly/honorary aunty role with children of 2 sets of friends. In the case of 1 of the families, I bubbled with the family during lockdown and had a huge amount of contact when the children were babies/ toddlers and still see them most weeks.
What is it they think they can do with the children differently if they see them unsupervised? In my case, I play a lot with the children and keep them occupied/entertained and sometimes the parents use this as an opportunity to get on with jobs/ life admin etc. Occasionally I do supervise them alone while a parent runs an errand but I don't see that having a parent around makes much difference to me building a relationship with the children. I wouldn't do something that was against what a parent wanted (a lot because we have similar ideas but even if we didn't, I'd want to respect their way of doing things).

I can read stories/ pretend to be a giant or one of the 3 bears/ make the teddies talk to each other in silly voices/answer questions about the world/ push swings/ do crafts/ play "rescue horsey" (don't ask)/ grow fruit and veg with them/ make up pretend spells to turn them into cabbages or broccoli while my magic wand strangely disappears when I put it behind my back to "charge it up"/talk about friends and school ( "what happened at school this week?" "Not much!" "I can't remember!")/make up silly songs/do jigsaws and board games/ try and teach them how to skip/ play I spy/ tell them not to stand on the mantlepiece etc etc just as well with parents around as without!
I think that their desire for unsupervised contact is much more about undermining your authority than about actually developing a relationship with your young children.

GoldPombear · 19/09/2024 16:25

S0CKPUPPET · 19/09/2024 15:50

I have a close friend who was in a similar situation to you. Their in-laws case was equally as hopeless as yours. Everyone they spoke to about it said they had no chance – just the same as you.

However the problem was that it took them about £20,000 and two years out their lives to get through the court process. At the end of this they finally got in front of a decisionmaker who said “ this is nonsense. I am if you want a relationship with the children, go and mend the bridges you have burned with the children’ parents “.

so yes, your in-laws main objective maybe to see the children unsupervised and without your consent. However, their secondary objective may be to abuse you through the legal process, as a punishment for not doing what they want.

The problem is that rich and plausible people can use the law to do this against people of modest means.

What happens in my friends Children’s case was that they were months of exchanges of letters between solicitors, which ran up the bills, lots of reports requested from various experts for which the children’s parents had to give access and take time off work to have meetings.

The In laws reported them to social services so there was an investigation. Social workers who are apparently too busy to investigate actual cases of abuse seemed to have plenty time for lots of visits , always in the day of course and so both parents had to use up their annual leave .

Social workers also demanded that the children were kept off school for these visits , otherwise they would attend the school to see them .

Then they requested reports from the GP, the school and the nursery.

During these SW visits, the parents had to pretend to be 100% happy with everything that was going on. As soon as The expressed even the slightest concern, this apparently was a HUGE red flags because the social workers had decided that anyone who doesn’t enjoy their visit is obviously hiding something and is probably abusive.

There were many prehearings in court at which either the case didn’t call or it did call but the other party's solicitors hadn’t turned up. Or the other party’s solicitor had turned up but didn’t have the necessary documents . So the case was postponed to another date a few months hence. This is why it dragged on for about two years .

So my advice is that you don’t instruct a solicitors right now, otherwise you lose control as the two lawyers just send endless emails to each other, run up bills and waste time.

I advise that you DO go to mediation. Don’t see this is a way of potentially giving the in-laws access to your children. See it as a means of delaying or possibly preventing legal action. Even if you can’t prevent it, you can use the process to show that you have been reasonable and corporative and also possibly to find out exactly what your in-laws want and what their main arguments are.

You dont have to go and sit in a room with them and discuss things. You can ask for shuffle mediation, where they are in one room you’re in another and the mediator goes between you. You can say this is for your husbands mental health.

remember it’s mediation and not therapy. Don’t pour out to the mediator how you’re feeling and how awful they have been. It’s understandable that you might want to do this but it’s not helpful . You have to speak all the time about the children and what is in their best interest.

Your bottom line needs to be that the relationship between yourselves and your in-laws has irretrievably broken down ( partly because of their behaviour over the years and now because of this legal threat ) and therefore it’s impossible to see how it’s in your children interest to have a relationship with the in-laws without you. Of course, when the children are adults and in a position to decide for themselves, you will support them in whatever they decide if they wish to have a relationship with the grandparents.

Maybe you want to offer some sort of non face to face contact, like the exchange of cards at birthdays and Christmas . Or perhaps a zoom call twice a year - this is a good one to offer if your kids are small as they will get bored after 5 mins. Id not offer to allow IL to send gifts as this has been abused in the past.

You may want to suggest they put money in a bank account which YOU hold in trust for the children as they will almost certainly refuse that. you want to offer things that you can agree to without too much stress, it doesn’t matter if they refuse .

your husband should tell the mediator about the abuse that he suffered as a child. I know that this may possibly be very distressing for him but he doesn’t really have an option now, I’m afraid. Not the details, but he needs to say how they were physically/ emotionally abusive and how they are still trying to control him as adult.

I think if you don’t mention this now, it might look less plausible if you literally mention it in court. But I know it’s not easy . You can ask the mediator to keep some things confidential.

you can explain that because of this history of abuse, you had tried to find some compromise with the in-laws to let them see the children under your supervision. You had thought that they might have changed and that you could keep your children safe, but sadly this is proved not to be the case and you realise that you made a mistake to even try this . You were only trying to give your children the opportunity to have some limited but positive relationship with their grandparents but you now realise that this can’t happen , which is very sad for your children. That’s is not about the Gp wishes , it’s about the children’s welfare.

Thank you for taking the time to write all this. Very helpful advice. One of my concerns is that they have lots of money, and we get by month to month, comfortable, but no spare money to spend on legal costs. They are also about to get an inheritance, so I suspect they will soon have even more disposable income :(

OP posts:
GoldPombear · 19/09/2024 16:27

Wishthiswasntmypost · 19/09/2024 13:35

Bloody hell!! Cut all contact, block their emails, phone calls, be rigid in your social media use and also explain to the schools, nurseries or anyone else who cares for your children that they must never communicate with them about the children.

Thank you. I'd forgotten we once added them as approved to collect at school while I was in hospital, though never hsed them for collecting. I've contacted the school today to remove them

OP posts:
GoldPombear · 19/09/2024 16:29

Ellie56 · 19/09/2024 14:08

They've sought legal advice when they already had plenty of access. Which is so bizarre, and why do they want it to be unsupervised?

Two thoughts:

Is DH their only child? And if so did MIL/FIL want a girl and your children are girls? In which case if they have unsupervised access they can play their own version of happy families, pretending they are the parents.

Or the more cynical reason could be these two warped individuals not content with the damage they've already done to their own son want to try and turn his own children against him by saying all sorts of shit about him/you while unsupervised.

Whatever their reasons are, I would absolutely go NC, moving hundreds of miles away if necessary. And seek legal advice to make sure your wills and guardianship arrangements are watertight, so that this toxic pair can never have anything to do with your children again.

Excellent point. MIL desperately wanted a girl and we have two, so that may be part of it

OP posts:
MinervaMcGonagallsCat · 19/09/2024 16:31

Don't panic if you do get a solicitor's letter.

It means nothing other than they have paid a solicitor to write it.

You don't need to comply with anything it says.

Notellinganyone · 19/09/2024 16:52

Who are all these people suggesting mediation? Why? The OP and her husband should totally cut contact and ignore any communication from now on.

Aquamarine1029 · 19/09/2024 17:23

Notellinganyone · 19/09/2024 16:52

Who are all these people suggesting mediation? Why? The OP and her husband should totally cut contact and ignore any communication from now on.

Exactly. This isn't a divorce, FGS. There is absolutely nothing to mediate about.

MeridianB · 19/09/2024 17:37

MinervaMcGonagallsCat · 19/09/2024 16:31

Don't panic if you do get a solicitor's letter.

It means nothing other than they have paid a solicitor to write it.

You don't need to comply with anything it says.

This. Don't negotiate or mediate with terrorists. Big grey rock. They are deranged. Ignore them.

commonsense61 · 19/09/2024 18:03

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Normallynumb · 19/09/2024 18:10

NC for all of your sakes
They have gone behind your back to seek advice
They are evil

DrummingMousWife · 19/09/2024 18:17

Grandparents very rarely get unsupervised contact with grandkids, when both parents are against it. They have seen the children, you have permitted contact and all gone to see them as a family. They are looking for control not a relationship with your kids.
i would stop contact entirely and move away from the toxic people. Family court do not look kindly on trouble making and control seeking - let them explain to a judge what they have done. It won’t go down well.

edited to say I would move away - physical move many many miles away.

Spenditlikebeckham · 19/09/2024 18:25

When we had a dd after lots of dgs mil started spouting what she would be dressing dd in and where she would be taking her.. Having never had any of the boys alone and def not with her driving we put stop to that idea straight away. Back away op and keep your dc safe. Do not even respond to her.. She wants to use cash to rattle you. Don't bend to it.

Threewheeler1 · 19/09/2024 18:29

I can't imagine how much stress this situation has brought into your lives.
Dealing with toxic family members feels like a never-ending nightmare at the best of times. I'd agree with all pp's, they just can't be trusted and it clearly causes you and your DH trauma, even without the legal threats.
I'd trust your instincts and go NC.

GoldPombear · 19/09/2024 19:38

EducatingArti · 19/09/2024 16:21

I find the attitude about seeking unsupervised contact with the children really bizarre.
I'm not a grandparent but have a very grandmotherly/honorary aunty role with children of 2 sets of friends. In the case of 1 of the families, I bubbled with the family during lockdown and had a huge amount of contact when the children were babies/ toddlers and still see them most weeks.
What is it they think they can do with the children differently if they see them unsupervised? In my case, I play a lot with the children and keep them occupied/entertained and sometimes the parents use this as an opportunity to get on with jobs/ life admin etc. Occasionally I do supervise them alone while a parent runs an errand but I don't see that having a parent around makes much difference to me building a relationship with the children. I wouldn't do something that was against what a parent wanted (a lot because we have similar ideas but even if we didn't, I'd want to respect their way of doing things).

I can read stories/ pretend to be a giant or one of the 3 bears/ make the teddies talk to each other in silly voices/answer questions about the world/ push swings/ do crafts/ play "rescue horsey" (don't ask)/ grow fruit and veg with them/ make up pretend spells to turn them into cabbages or broccoli while my magic wand strangely disappears when I put it behind my back to "charge it up"/talk about friends and school ( "what happened at school this week?" "Not much!" "I can't remember!")/make up silly songs/do jigsaws and board games/ try and teach them how to skip/ play I spy/ tell them not to stand on the mantlepiece etc etc just as well with parents around as without!
I think that their desire for unsupervised contact is much more about undermining your authority than about actually developing a relationship with your young children.

Yes, I totally agree. It must be about undermining us, or making us out to be the bad ones somehow? It's a very unnerving situation

OP posts: