In-laws seeking legal right to access our children

[GoldPombear]

So, my in-laws are very difficult people. We have tried hard to maintain a positive relationship with them and there are bad times and more manageable times. But they essentially always cause me anxiety and cause my husband great upset and mental health breakdowns (he has generalised anxiety disorder). We have three children, and since our engagement, and then first pregnancy, the bad times have got worse.

More recently, things have been more settled, so we had been seeing them more (they live 130 miles away). However, they were/ are emotionally abusive and were physically abusive towards my husband in the past. So they don't have unsupervised contact with our three children (all under 6). (There is one exception, when our son was small we went to a funeral and they looked after him nearby while we were in the church service). However, we can never do enough, we are never in the right, they are very controlling and are incredibly entitled in relation to our children. When they have these horrible outbursts, they never apologise, they blame us and then start throwing money at the situation, bug presents etc. However, they haven't directly done anything to harm or upset our children, if they did it would be clear cut.

Out of the blue, they told us that they had met with a solicitor to get access to our children. I can't explain the visceral impact of hearing this. I do not trust them but I never thought they could stoop this low. Reading online it doesn't seem to say they have much of a case, though they have a lot of money they could throw at the situation if they wanted to. They seem to be seeking contact without us, but again I don't think this would be granted. Anyway, we suspect they have been told to sort the relationship with us, as they brought up going to mediation.

I think I'm asking what other people would do? I can't see how the relationship can be repaired from this and I'm not sure I want it to be repaired. But they aren't my parents and my husband is understandably very confused.

If the legal advice had told them they had a good case, I suspect they would have proceeded and we would have had a letter in the post. But now they haven't got the answer they wanted.

Would other people try and maintain this relationship? Or is all trust broken? I know they are relatives, but they have caused so much pain and stress and unnecessary drama ovet all the years i have known them, that I can't see much benefit for my children for us to continue this relationship......

I would also tell the Flying Monkey (if you don't wish to send one last Registered letter to them saying you want no contact from them ever again, and any contact henceforth you will notify the police) that you are not interested in hearing about them even in the context of a health crisis because you won't believe it and they will just be saying it to manipulate you. That will then get back to them that even using a health crisis is a waste of time.

The gifts are a boundary push.

They are there to by-pass you to your DCs.

This is them physically invading your space to elicit power and control.

They also then invade your mental space to unsettle you with self-doubt asto your stance and actions.

Dont give them the power - dont let them in your house.

They want a response, they want a chink of light that they can exploit.

Dont give them any of this. Keep your DCs away from these missives/missiles - because these gifts are weapons and part of their agenda.

Dont feel guilty - thats what they intend and need you to feel - so that you are then more vulnerable to comply with their wishes. Just intercept and dispose.

I would plan your perfect Christmas season with your DCs - throw everything at it get creative and busy to stop you looking over your shoulder and to ensure you are immersed in the joyous moments with your DCs.

I had to extract my DCs from family and the whole Christmas period is hardest because the situation - NC - although necessary is not normal and not what we would have wanted and this is time of the year is intense. I worked really hard to give them OTT magical Christmases as I was taking them away from big extended family experiences that they had been used to butnow as grown adults they have thanked me for this and we have built our own extra special unique traditions and rituals.

I forgot to say that about presents…. In my case, I ended up returning to sender. My mum was over the top with all of that too. (Also, don’t ever tell these people what YOU intend to buy your kids because they will swoop in early with a bigger, better, much more expensive version - or something/things alive and fluffy that you are in no position to look after.)

I wouldnt even return to sender as that is inadvertently fuel/ammunition for them and they are after ANY reaction for traction and drama. Starve them.

Silence, distance, detaching and indifference are your superpowers in these situations. Turn your back and pivot your mental focus to somewhere else that is healthy, radiant and reciprocal.

A grandparent can very occasionally obtain a court order (a child arrangements order) by which a child lives or spends time with them (typically when they have already assumed a defacto parent role and the parents are not able to meet the child's needs as things currently stand) but:
a) they would need permission before they could even make the application; and
b) on these facts it is vanishingly unlikely that they would get it.

I would be inclined to write them, whether utilising a lawyer or otherwise, informing them that you view their conduct as threatening and abusive and that you will not be engaging - but in the event it continues will seek the assistance of the police.

Engaging in mediation gives credence to the idea it is a matter for the family court, which it plainly is not on those facts. It is harassment and nothing more.

@GoldPombear

The boxes of presents is difficult. Any response from you, even returning the package or saying 'stop it' gets them what they want; the knowledge that they can still provoke a reaction. So 'common wisdom' is that you should maintain no contact and toss it unopened or open and donate.

If you have someone who can be trusted to 'trickle back' to them that you tossed it and will toss future packages that might be my first choice. But only if that person will not try to engage you (or them) in 'drama'. If there is no such person, I'd just toss it unopened and continue to do so IF you feel it will cause DH emotional harm to open the box. If he can handle it emotionally, I'd open and donate the contents to a charity, where they will never be seen again and hopefully they're going to someone who needs them.

If you feel they will be 'tenacious' and that DH is suffering emotionally from package arrivals, then I'd consider ONE letter, preferably from a solicitor, saying that the packages are unwanted, you have tossed them, and they are not to send anymore as those will be tossed too. BUT, be aware that any letter will be shown to all and sundry and the worst possible spin put on it. And that instead of getting them to stop, it may make it worse.

Goodness no, as an IDVA I can tell you that mediation is NOT accepted as a way to point out abuse, in fact it's quite the opposite. Meditation is most definitely NOT recommended where they dynamic involves abuse, and is an accepted reason to decline a MIAM.

Mediation is never recommended with abusers….

Don’t return to sender. It will just give them fuel to start a fight or bad mouth you.

Try asking them to stop sending gifts as it is spoiling the DC and unhealthy for them first. You might want to make it about them rather than the DC eg they don’t want the DC to only love them for what they can get from them.

For the same reason, I wouldn’t directly tell them that you are going NC yet. Just tell them you need some space and you will contact them when you are ready. If they do contact you, you can tell them directly not to contact you.

Sometimes it is easier to just fade away… If you tell them you want no contact, they are going to put up a fight because they have nothing to lose. They will likely take you to court, even if they have no chance of winning and it gets thrown out at the first stage. They may make false allegations to try and get access.

A caveat, if they are harassing you with constant contact and won’t leave you alone, you will need to tell them in writing/email/text not to contact you if you need the police to be involved or want to get a non molestation order.

You cannot abnegate a blood relationship in this way without it becoming a nasty cemented ongoing family rift. No one is unable to change, and if you presented the issue as you have spelled it out here, that is their catalyst to change.

@MrMucker You seriously believe this?

Words fail me...

My former mil has spent her adult life abusing the vulnerable in her family, children, grandchildren, people dying of cancer, her husband. She isn’t allowed unsupervised contact with the great grandchildren because of it despite offering baby sitting.

She is 85. It never ends. She enjoys it because it gives her feelings of power and superiority which is how she gets her kicks but now she’s alienated everyone who normally would have helped her and is miserable and I am here for it with bells on 😃

You are protecting your children and breaking the abuse cycle. It’s hard but keep going. You are doing well. Keep venting here if it helps. You are not the only ones dealing with this sort of madness

I'm so sorry.

You've had excellent and consistent advice here.

I'd agree:

Tell your sister & BIL exactly why the grandparents are not to have access / any sort of control should anything happen to you (touch wood).

Tell school that the GPs are not to be allowed access to the children, because of their childhood abuse of your husband and ongoing attempts to control you all.

Encourage your husband to seek therapy for his experiences and the harm it did - this will help as evidence should further attempts be made to get to your children.

Tell no family members or mutual friends anything about your private business.

The flying monkeys are a favourite controller tool.

As are suicide threats. 'You'll be sorry when I'm dead' was a favourite phrase of one of my great-aunts.

This is a long, sad but very informative and authoritative article on coercive control :
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/controlling-or-coercive-behaviour-statutory-guidance-framework/controlling-or-coercive-behaviour-statutory-guidance-framework-accessible

It includes suicide threats as a coercive controlling abuser's tactic. It's exactly what the in laws are trying now to frighten you, and the flying monkeys are equally being controlled by them. Striking fear into their hearts and driving them to try to divert what they think might happen.

I'd be inclined to send the presents straight back.

All best to you.

Mil sent our dc a birthday present.. I sent it back recorded delivery.. If you have plenty then donate them to a charity to pass on to other dc. If you keep them you will be forever reminded they are cunts.

Haven't seen mil since 2nd January 2015.....bliss..

Their goal is never to be happy, they are not interested in happiness. For them it’s more fun to abuse their own children, play power games and exercise control.

I used to donate the unwanted gifts to women’s aid, they were very pleased to have them ( it was usually gift sets of women’s toiletries/ perfume / make up etc not children’s toys ) . I also found a charity that took the unopened sets and used them as raffle prizes for fund raising.

Then the relatives went through a phase of sending very expensive bouquets of flowers to our house. I have no idea why, maybe they thought I’d keep them because I love flowers and you can’t exactly send them to the charity shop.

Then I hit on the idea of handing them into the local hospice, I felt happy to know how much pleasure they would give to the wonderful staff and their patients and Loved ones.

It turned into some weird competition where they sent more and more stuff and I found ways of disposing of it that were more creative than tossing them in the bin. Which is fine of course if it works for you but it made me feel guilty having it sit outside my house in the wheelie bin. I realise that’s my issue but that’s how I felt.

Of course the relatives had no idea what I did with the stuff , I never responded, the dilemma was all in my head. As you know it’s a two part problem - their behaviour ( which I can’t control ) and how that made me feel and how I acted (which I’m working on ).

well said, agree with you

Return the presents if you can, or donate them to a Christmas toy appeal.

This is very old… I have cut & pasted it from an old thread under a previous nom de plume. For context, my DD1 is now 20 and my parents and shuffled off their mortal coils more than a decade ago (alcohol and smoking-related illnesses) and their wills still fucking problematic. They are still keeping lawyers wealthy in their attempts to control the narrative from beyond the grave.
I share DD1’s First Christmas…
It’s Long. Brace yourself.
My DD1’s first Christmas was well… Fucked. She was only 5m old, so doesn’t remember, but it set the scene for “family” Christmases for us from then on! That kid had reflux and only slept for 20mins at a time and frankly, between the lack of sleep and juggling family politics, I wasn’t prepared to play that game. We also live in Aus, and the distance required to drive between some of these people - in the same town - I huge, and it’s bloody hot!!!
My DM (narc) had decided that we were going to hers at lunchtime. Explained that wasn’t happening and why. Invited her and DF around for breakfast and coffee and to watch DD with her Santa presents. They accepted the invitation and we planned the rest of the PITAS (relatives) around that. DH’s parents are divorced and of course not amicably. DH’s DM (another Narc, managed to piss everyone off to the point that DH is the only one who talks to her now. Idiot.) and mine competitive AF. Passive-aggressive snark + Wine = I get it in the neck for the rest of the year. Nope. No thanks. She has drunk, violent bf DH has rescued her from once too often and he is banned from our home. She refuses to come. Awesome! Problem solved! Until the drunken sobbing phone call on Christmas Eve begging him to come and get her again. This time he said refused, so she stayed at a friend’s place, but wanted to come for breakfast and enjoy the Santa fun…. fml! He did actually say no to that too, but she rocked up at 6:30 with ONE CROISSANT. (Stale - because - nothing open of course.) Anyhow… I’m too shitty to say anything to either of them. Get him to speak to her and I’m cooking the breakfast for my parents. He makes her coffee (and serves her her stale croissant 🤣)… and we wait…. And wait… and wait… I rang my parents place and spoke to Dad who had obviously no idea that they were supposed to come over. Mum snatched the phone away and said, “Oh, Your father’s not well in the mornings and doesn't feel like going. You’ll have to come round at lunch after all.” Riiiiiiight. Ummmm… no. Explained that we were not going to do that because we had other guests coming through the day, like we’d discussed. She hung up in a rage. Dad rang back and was furious because mum had invited about 30 friends as well as wider family to show off “HER” baby, and how dare I embarrass her like that. Explained that actually, she had made plans to come to breakfast - that I had paid for and cooked, and not even had the manners to call me, and she knew that I wasn’t coming. He knew what she was like, but he had to play the game or be chewed up. He threw me under the bus and yelled at me too. I told him he was a spineless bastard, and he said “What do you want me to do?” I hung up. Pretty upset and angry, hurt and disappointed by this stage. My DH fielded the increasingly abusive, hysterical phone calls from my DM. MIL thought it prudent to crawl away at some time too. We had FIL &SMIL for morning tea. They’re nice enough. All of us relieved they avoided MIL. Then DH’s GM who I adored over for lunch. (Utterly disappointed by her daughter, btw. Very happy to avoid my MIL also.) I was just starting to relax when my DM roared up the driveway, but couldn’t get into our gate. (It wasn’t locked - she was just so hysterical, she couldn’t work out how to unlatch it.) She was screeching obscenities through the hole you put your hand in to open the gate like a very short, foul-mouthed harpy, (all about how I’d embarrassed her and ruined HER special day) then started throwing the presents she’d bought for my DD over the fence. (Smashed my beautiful Osmanthus, too!) I videoed it all and emailled it to my father. (No comment in return.)
*You should have known what she was like after we
when we scuppered her plans for our wedding!
**We moved from Australia to Europe when the kids were 4, 2 & 2 and returned when they were 13, 11 & 11.

Fuck them off and get a restraining order they sound totally unhinged, cut all contact and move far away. Do not leave a forwarding address.

Donate the gifts and do not tell them.

Hi @GoldPombear OP - how are things going 9 months on?

Thanks for the check in. It has been a confusing and hard few months. They are still trying to get us to respond. We have ignored all attempts at contact. We've had; letters and many parcels of huge presents; emotionally triggering things from my husband's childhood delivered; barrages of abusive messages (to us and to family members who haven't cut us off); phonecalls; begging messages; self indulgent messages full of pity for themselves. Still nothing near to an apology. It is apparently all our fault...not sure how they figured that out.

They pursued the legal approach and we had to attend mediation, just with a mediator. Family mediation was deemed not to be appropriate. They were given leave to apply to court. So far we haven't received anything to say that they have applied to the court. We've heard through family members that they are threatening to put in safeguarding concerns about our children. Unbelievable. The longer this goes on and the more they do it all just reinforces to us that no contact is what we needed to do for our family's emotional safety. I don't know what they will do next and it's a really awful horrible threat to be living under. My husband has had weekly counselling, which has saved him (and us) from having a total emotional breakdown. It's been really tough and I just hope they stop and leave is alone soon.

@GoldPombear

Have you sought legal advice yourselves?

Yes, but only briefly. The person I spoke to said it was "astonishing" and that she had never experienced a case like this before! (With about 20 years experience in family law). The gist was that there was probably a small chance of them getting an initial hearing, but very little chance it would progress further. Who knows what will happen next