In-laws seeking legal right to access our children

[GoldPombear]

So, my in-laws are very difficult people. We have tried hard to maintain a positive relationship with them and there are bad times and more manageable times. But they essentially always cause me anxiety and cause my husband great upset and mental health breakdowns (he has generalised anxiety disorder). We have three children, and since our engagement, and then first pregnancy, the bad times have got worse.

More recently, things have been more settled, so we had been seeing them more (they live 130 miles away). However, they were/ are emotionally abusive and were physically abusive towards my husband in the past. So they don't have unsupervised contact with our three children (all under 6). (There is one exception, when our son was small we went to a funeral and they looked after him nearby while we were in the church service). However, we can never do enough, we are never in the right, they are very controlling and are incredibly entitled in relation to our children. When they have these horrible outbursts, they never apologise, they blame us and then start throwing money at the situation, bug presents etc. However, they haven't directly done anything to harm or upset our children, if they did it would be clear cut.

Out of the blue, they told us that they had met with a solicitor to get access to our children. I can't explain the visceral impact of hearing this. I do not trust them but I never thought they could stoop this low. Reading online it doesn't seem to say they have much of a case, though they have a lot of money they could throw at the situation if they wanted to. They seem to be seeking contact without us, but again I don't think this would be granted. Anyway, we suspect they have been told to sort the relationship with us, as they brought up going to mediation.

I think I'm asking what other people would do? I can't see how the relationship can be repaired from this and I'm not sure I want it to be repaired. But they aren't my parents and my husband is understandably very confused.

If the legal advice had told them they had a good case, I suspect they would have proceeded and we would have had a letter in the post. But now they haven't got the answer they wanted.

Would other people try and maintain this relationship? Or is all trust broken? I know they are relatives, but they have caused so much pain and stress and unnecessary drama ovet all the years i have known them, that I can't see much benefit for my children for us to continue this relationship......

If they've listened rationally to decent legal advice their goal will be to threaten to launch a (n unwinnable) case against you as leverage to get you to do a deal and provide them with more access than you'd otherwise provide.

This is not about them hoping to succeed. It's about leverage to get you to agree to something you shouldn't.

Be very neutral if you engage, have an agreed set of points with your husband, don't deviate from them, and don't rise to any bait.

Of course they sound toxic when you put it like that. But I’d like to hear their side of the story.

it’s not that I don’t believe you, but you will have a view that can be easily entrenched.

when you say physically abusive to your DH, do you mean he got smacked as a kid? I know it’s not good- I’d never smack my kids, but it was a widely accepted way of punishing kids in the 80’s.

mediation is recommended for all family disputes- it’s cheaper and more constructive than court. The fact they’ve requested it doesn’t mean they don’t think they have a case.

reading it as an uninvolved observer, I can see how it must be difficult to have no access to grandchildren and no chance to build a relationship.

I don’t get on with my dad but he’s been an excellent grandfather and it has gone a long way to build and repair bridges.

what do you think will happen if you allow your ILs to see your kids?

I don't know where they are up to with legal proceedings. They informed us that they've met with a solicitor and then suggested we go to mediation. But nothing has come through in writing....yet.

Thanks for the advice

They sound dangerous. Anyone who threatened to take away my children (which is what they're doing seeking unsupervised access through a court of law) would be immediately cut out of my life. Keep all records.

My IL threaten this - lots of talk about their rights - it was when we were not jumping when they said how high and they saw kids round us as MIL and safety were an issue.

I don't believe they ever saw a solicitor but someone they trusted must have sat them down and explained they had none - they weren't used for childcare and didn't leave near us and DH and I were married with no issues with our parenting.

They did buck up their ideas a lot - and we did move on and we did get boundaries in place. Kids have benefited from having them in their lives though maintaining those boundaries has been a strain.

I think if I had been told they'd sought actual legal advice my reaction would have been very different - and not sure how DH would have reacted - but I think there would have been much less contact not more - as I wouldn't want them to misconstrue any visits and give them any in and I'd be on high alert from now on with them.

I think you need to sit down with DH and talk about how undermining and underhand this is and that your kids are likely better off without these people in their lives.

Starting a legal case like this would be the last straw. You need to go totally nc with these narcissistic arseholes.

There is no such thing as grandparental rights. The only circumstances where a court might make a contact order for grandparents would be in a situation where the children had a strong attachment bond to the grandparents - especially if the grandparents were their main carer if the parents were elsewhere. Their case will get nowhere. I doubt it will ever get to court but if it does then you merely need to testify that their behaviour and personalities are such that it would be detrimental to your whole family to have any contact.

Stop trying to fix the relationship. Any efforts you put in now would weaken the argument that these people should not be a part of the children's lives.

100% this. Sounds like the GAD your DH has is all them too. Just get away from these toxic lunatics and don't look back. Despite the emotional guilt they probably try to put on you, you and your DH owe them nothing. In fact you'll be being great parents but cutting off contact and protecting your kids from this.

Yes grandparents have no legal rights in the uk. Thank goodness for you. Absolutely cut ties with them. Sorry they did that, awful.
Stay strong, your children don't need that influence in their lives x

Mediation might actually be a good way to cut it off.

sounds like they don’t have a legal case at all.

but family dynamics are complicated. A mediator may actually get the GPs to see the court case is not viable and they need to change their behaviour.

They have no right to have any access to your children at all. Why would you want to go into mediation with them?
Honestly while your kids are too young to remember them I would completely cut contact. They've shown they're very capable of playing dirty. Machiavellian people don't change & are very capable of causing trauma down the generations.

I suspect they brought up mediation because the solicitor told them they had no case but that they might just be able to sort something by agreement through mediation. Obviously they won't have told the lawyer all the background stuff which means that actually mediation won't go anywhere. You don't even have to think about it unless and until you get a formal pre-action letter.

Contrary to what a poster on here says, solicitors won't put forward baseless claims which they know can't be pursued just because they are paid. Effectively that would be intimidatory conduct which is against professional rules and could get them into a lot of trouble.

Has your husband had any therapy looking at his relationship with his parents? Because it sounds as if they are horrible parents, ILs and grandparents but he has felt driven to persist with the relationship however awful it is.

As a start I'd suggest looking at the Out of the Fog website and Susan Forward's books Toxic Parents and Toxic In-laws if he and you haven't already.

Are you absolutely sure they have obtained legal advice? People say all sorts of things, when they want their own way, even tell bare faced lies! Personally, I would seek legal advice yourself, just for peace of mind. I don't believe Grandparents have any legal rights, but I'm no solicitor and you need proper advice. If a solicitor tells you, that you don't have to agree to mediation and your ILS have no legal rights to force unsupervised contact, then you cut ties. However, they may have 'no right to a relationship with their Grandchildren' but their 'Grandchildren may have rights to a relationship with their Grandparents', if this is the case (and a solicitor will know), you may need to either agree to medication or be prepared to fight it out with them legally. I wouldn't want contact with such toxic people. If you decide to go 'no contact', then this must absolutely be a joint decision with your husband. He's in a more difficult position, because regardless of how they may be, they're still his parents.

If they've listened rationally to decent legal advice their goal will be to threaten to launch a (n unwinnable) case against you as leverage to get you to do a deal and provide them with more access than you'd otherwise provide.
This is not about them hoping to succeed. It's about leverage to get you to agree to something you shouldn't.

I think the mediation offer is this - but I would seek legal advice - about wills if nothing else and probably not reply at all or have any contact till I knew where I stood legally. Long term I'd want no contact because all trust is gone.

Do not let their bank balance intimidate you. You do not have to engage with them via mediation if there is a history of abuse, even if a solicitors letter lands on the mat it's just what they have been paid to write, it doesn't mean it's happening. Try not to panic.

At the same time, accept that while they may have not done anything to your DC directly they have harmed them via their actions which have caused you great stress and heartache. They are being selfish instigating legal proceedings, their concern is themselves, not what is best for the GC. Cut them off, they don't have a leg to stand on. You reap what you sow.

The vote is pretty clear!

I don't think they have a leg to stand on legally. Grandparents don't have a 'right' to see their grandchildren. Unless the parents were totally negligent and abusive then maybe custody might be awarded. But in this case it's just bollocks basically.
Just don't ever speak to them again. You'll be a lot happier.

I would be concerned that if they even had supervised access to your kids, they would make up stories about you and your husband to social services/the police alleging abuse or neglect in order to get access to your kids. So on that basis I would never let them near my children. They sound unhinged.

I'd speak to a lawyer as a priority. Some of the advice you're being given on this thread is not accurate.

Not to try to frighten you, but the assumption that grandparents would automatically be denied contact should they go down the legal route is incorrect. The court isn't interested in grandparents' rights; or any other adults' rights for that matter. Their key concern is the rights of the child; whether they have the right to know their grandparents, and whether a relationship with them would be in those children's best interests.

The first step is mediation. If that fails, grandparents can thereafter apply for leave to appeal for a child arrangements order. If the court believes a relationship with them is in the child's best interests, they will usually grant one.

Here's where your personal circumstances kick in. The court will look more favourably on their application IF there is already a close relationship and a strong bond with the children. In your case, this doesn't appear to be so. They thankfully live some distance away. There is no unsupervised contact. There is a history of abusive behaviour. And both parents are on the same page with this (these are relations that tend to break down when there's a divorce or death of one parent).

I also wholeheartedly recommend Susan Forward's Toxic In-Laws.

If they're threatening the peace and equilibrium of your family then NC would certainly be my first inclination. But I'd strongly recommend you seek advice from a lawyer before taking any further steps.

Sorry you are being put through this.

I believe my batshit MIL attempted to go down this route but realised all the money in the world wouldn’t gain her access.

The only way grandparents have rights is if they’ve been primary care givers (aka foster Carers to the children- but as the children have never lived there they don’t have the tiniest leg to stand on).

PIL threatened to disown us, for us to be ‘dewilled’ and to forbid other family members to have anything to do with us.

The have very limited contact via DH. They come over (live similar distance to your in laws) every 3 months or so for a couple of hours. DH goes to the toilet before they arrive and doesn’t leave them with DD for a second. Last visit MIL told DD (she’s only a baby so doesn’t understand) that she’d like to see her more but she’s not allowed/would like to have her over at her house but we’re being mean. DH told them to stop it or they’d be asked to leave. Afterwards he told them they need to be thankful for what they’ve got, and that’s their final warning.

If my In-laws had threatened legal action (which I’m sure they looked into) there’s not a hope in hell they’d receive as much as a photograph in future.

You don’t need to go to mediation. Of course that’s what their legal team is advising/pressuring you for because that’s their best case scenario.

I'd be cutting all contact.

You might want to see a solicitor, just to put your own minds at ease and get some advice on making sure they would not be appointed guardians if something happened to you.

I have a close relative who took legal advice on getting access to her grandchildren. Her situation was that she had looked after them a lot from being very small and she was concerned about their welfare. Their father was a violent alcoholic and constantly threatened to refuse to allow the grandparents any access to the children if they didn't do as he asked (giving him money, helping excuse his behaviour etc). His wife was controlled by him and they were genuinely concerned about how bad things could get if they were not there to keep an eye out for the children. Even in that situation, they were told that unless there was proven harm to the children it would be very difficult to force access without the parents' consent.

I would decline mediation due to it not being advised for victims to have mediation with their abusers and if the GPs push it to court let them waste their money.

I don't think they have right of access under UK law at the moment.

Not a chance would I facilitate my children having a relationship with people who abused their father.

They won't be able to proceed with any legal action until you have been through mediation. Your husbands grounds for refusing to engage with mediation lie in their previous treatment of him; it's ongoing effects on him; his desire not to allow his children to experience anything similar as it would not be in their best interests.
if they are persistent then they can still go to court citing your refusal to engage as evidence of being unreasonable. If it comes to it offer 1 supervised video call/month, and at Christmas and birthdays, and a supervised visit once a year. The visit should be to them as it's easier for you to leave rather than trying to get them out of your home.