Page 12 | In-laws seeking legal right to access our children

GoldPombear · 2024-09-19T09:39:58+00:00

So, my in-laws are very difficult people. We have tried hard to maintain a positive relationship with them and there are bad times and more manageable times. But they essentially always cause me anxiety and cause my husband great upset and mental health breakdowns (he has generalised anxiety disorder). We have three children, and since our engagement, and then first pregnancy, the bad times have got worse. More recently, things have been more settled, so we had been seeing them more (they live 130 miles away). However, they were/ are emotionally abusive and were physically abusive towards my husband in the past. So they don't have unsupervised contact with our three children (all under 6). (There is one exception, when our son was small we went to a funeral and they looked after him nearby while we were in the church service). However, we can never do enough, we are never in the right, they are very controlling and are incredibly entitled in relation to our children. When they have these horrible outbursts, they never apologise, they blame us and then start throwing money at the situation, bug presents etc. However, they haven't directly done anything to harm or upset our children, if they did it would be clear cut. Out of the blue, they told us that they had met with a solicitor to get access to our children. I can't explain the visceral impact of hearing this. I do not trust them but I never thought they could stoop this low. Reading online it doesn't seem to say they have much of a case, though they have a lot of money they could throw at the situation if they wanted to. They seem to be seeking contact without us, but again I don't think this would be granted. Anyway, we suspect they have been told to sort the relationship with us, as they brought up going to mediation. I think I'm asking what other people would do? I can't see how the relationship can be repaired from this and I'm not sure I want it to be repaired. But they aren't my parents and my husband is understandably very confused. If the legal advice had told them they had a good case, I suspect they would have proceeded and we would have had a letter in the post. But now they haven't got the answer they wanted. Would other people try and maintain this relationship? Or is all trust broken? I know they are relatives, but they have caused so much pain and stress and unnecessary drama ovet all the years i have known them, that I can't see much benefit for my children for us to continue this relationship......

Fraaahnces · 18/11/2024 11:02

Hi @GoldPombear I hate to say this but you can totally expect the crazy to really amp up over the Holiday period because they want photos of the kids to share on FB. I would recommend going away if you possibly can for the weeks preceding Christmas. In this time you can expect -

Health Crises - “Mum’s in hospital with a suspected heart attack”. (It will be a panic attack/anxiety - all your fault) or “Suspected Cancer” (Constipation/IBS- again, your fault.)
”Suicide Attempts” (Usually staged “overdoses” and mixed pills and alcohol)
”Car Accidents” - all your fault as they “can’t concentrate on anything else.” Or “They were drinking because they were so very depressed.”

The Flying Monkeys will up the ante re Christmas Day guilt trips
“Ah, your mother won’t be able to live with herself if she can’t be there to watch the kids open their presents first thing in the morning…” (DON’T BE HOME)
”Your parents are desperately lonely and it could be their last one. It’s only one meal a year. You should swallow your pride for the sake of the kids.”

There will be zero accountability. Zero genuine apology. Zero boundaries. This has to come from you. If you don’t, they will use their money to divide and conquer you from your kids.

DemonicCaveMaggot · 18/11/2024 11:03

I would ask the 'flying monkey' who told you about the suicide threats if they contacted the police or social services about the threats and if not, why not. I suspect they will reply that they didn't take the threat seriously which makes it easy to reply 'then why should I?'.

Don't go to mediation or counselling with an abuser they'll spend the time denying the abuse, blaming you, or refusing to engage - it will be a complete waste of everyone's time.

Skybluepinky · 18/11/2024 11:03

Unlikely they’ll get anywhere they would need to prove it was in the children’s intetest.
Only communicate via solicitor.

Greyrocked · 18/11/2024 11:21

I would entirely cut contact at this point. It's so far outside normal behaviour that it would show me they weren't safe people.

MovingDilema · 18/11/2024 11:47

Sorry they are still following the rule book. But good that your DH is getting support through all of this. I would tell the family member that if someone is telling them they are going to commit suicide then the correct response is not to tell you and for them to call the police with concerns for welfare, and that you will not be having contact with them if they keep passing information on.

your DH is not just having to deal with this current situation, but viewing the whole childhood he’s had through different eyes. Who the actual fuck pushes their child down the stairs, he could still go to the police over this!

I see my in-laws once or twice a year for an hour, and expect them to start crapping on about grandparents visitation rights when they don’t get any unsupervised grandparent time.

RB68 · 18/11/2024 11:58

advice is to not attend mediation with an abusive person or people so I would not be going to mediation. I would be going to a lawyer and getting them to set that you cannot agree to unsupervised contact with such young children, that they are not entitled to any contact and actually stop contact on a regular basis as any regular contact if it goes to court could be ordered to continue then you are stuck. But ask the lawyer for their advice and how things stand - to be fair if they try going via court it is going to take a long time at the moment the delays in court are huge

Hiji · 18/11/2024 12:03

Fraaahnces · 18/11/2024 11:02

Hi @GoldPombear I hate to say this but you can totally expect the crazy to really amp up over the Holiday period because they want photos of the kids to share on FB. I would recommend going away if you possibly can for the weeks preceding Christmas. In this time you can expect -

Health Crises - “Mum’s in hospital with a suspected heart attack”. (It will be a panic attack/anxiety - all your fault) or “Suspected Cancer” (Constipation/IBS- again, your fault.)
”Suicide Attempts” (Usually staged “overdoses” and mixed pills and alcohol)
”Car Accidents” - all your fault as they “can’t concentrate on anything else.” Or “They were drinking because they were so very depressed.”

The Flying Monkeys will up the ante re Christmas Day guilt trips
“Ah, your mother won’t be able to live with herself if she can’t be there to watch the kids open their presents first thing in the morning…” (DON’T BE HOME)
”Your parents are desperately lonely and it could be their last one. It’s only one meal a year. You should swallow your pride for the sake of the kids.”

There will be zero accountability. Zero genuine apology. Zero boundaries. This has to come from you. If you don’t, they will use their money to divide and conquer you from your kids.

Its quite handy that abusive patterns of behaviour are so unoriginal and cliched as it gives you time to plan ahead. Its like toxic bingo.

I would also add to the above that gifts arriving - aiming to manipulate a response and contact with your DCs.

Advice is always very clear that these are not given to the DCs or any acknowlegment of receipt given to the ILs (i wont call them DGP/GPs as their behaviour doesnt warrant it). Treat them as the polluted missile intended for your family home and get them off the premises into the boot of your car to charity shop asap.

They may come to your home - get a ring doorbell. Tell them to leave and warn them that you will call the police. You can tell them in a brief one line email/text that they are not to make contact with you or your family ..... and if there are more than two further incidents you can reportto the police as this constitutes stalking/harassment. But you may choose to just ignore and not officially tell them that you are NC. I would intervene and stop any friend if they started relyinginfo to you - shut it down and out as it will mess with your head.

keep your DH busy in the present having positive times with healthy families. He has a lot to untangle and needs to continue to keep investing in professional support.

Just be prepared for the silly season coming up.....

Artistbythewater · 18/11/2024 12:09

Hiji · 18/11/2024 12:03

Its quite handy that abusive patterns of behaviour are so unoriginal and cliched as it gives you time to plan ahead. Its like toxic bingo.

I would also add to the above that gifts arriving - aiming to manipulate a response and contact with your DCs.

Advice is always very clear that these are not given to the DCs or any acknowlegment of receipt given to the ILs (i wont call them DGP/GPs as their behaviour doesnt warrant it). Treat them as the polluted missile intended for your family home and get them off the premises into the boot of your car to charity shop asap.

They may come to your home - get a ring doorbell. Tell them to leave and warn them that you will call the police. You can tell them in a brief one line email/text that they are not to make contact with you or your family ..... and if there are more than two further incidents you can reportto the police as this constitutes stalking/harassment. But you may choose to just ignore and not officially tell them that you are NC. I would intervene and stop any friend if they started relyinginfo to you - shut it down and out as it will mess with your head.

keep your DH busy in the present having positive times with healthy families. He has a lot to untangle and needs to continue to keep investing in professional support.

Just be prepared for the silly season coming up.....

Show quote history

I have an issue with presents. My parents continue to send them. This is the first year I am considering not sending or receiving any from family. I have some guilt around sending them back - how is this overcome?

LookItsMeAgain · 18/11/2024 12:13

Just checking in to see how you're doing today @GoldPombear.
Remember, you cannot and shouldn't be living under the cloud of "What if..." so if your FiL threatens to off himself, your response should be to have the number of the local police station handy so that you can contact them to do a welfare check on him. Don't get embroiled in further drama as it seems to me that your DH's parents thrive on drama.

Hope you're doing better and feeling more surefooted on how to carry on.

Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 12:43

user1492757084 · 18/11/2024 05:29

Can you agree to mediation with the view of using the mediation to help emphasise that they tried to gain access to your children without you? Therefore, you feel the only way forward is to go no contact, given past abuse of your DH.

A mediator might help them understand your new stance.

Would you ever agree to supervised monthly visits?

We were considering mediation. But subsequently decided that it would only be damaging to my DH and is unlikely to resolve anything

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Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 12:47

MrMucker · 18/11/2024 07:13

Doing mediation is also something you can do to demonstrate you have tried everything.
what do you say in the future to your children who ask "why don't we see those gps?"
Do you tell them "nah, cut contact, couldn't stand them"
or do you tell them "we tried everything but it just didn't work getting along together".

The whole point of mediation is for both parties to have a chance to say what they think and feel. When else are you going to get a chance to say to their faces what you have said here? How else are they ever going to understand what it is that is holding you back from them?

If they are "emotionally abusive" then mediation is generally accepted as an excellent opportunity to point this out.
I'm sorry there are so many people supporting non contact. These are key people in yours, your husbands and your children's family make up. You cannot abnegate a blood relationship in this way without it becoming a nasty cemented ongoing family rift. No one is unable to change, and if you presented the issue as you have spelled it out here, that is their catalyst to change.

No contact without mediation seals things and prevents any change whatsoever.
It's the easy option I suppose.

In no way is no contact the "easy option " if anything I think my husband is incredibly brave for putting me and his mental health and our children first and making a decision that is incredibly heart breaking for him

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Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 12:49

Artistbythewater · 18/11/2024 08:08

Your in laws are really throwing everything at this aren’t they. Slow clap for them. They are determined to break your husband and bring him to his knees. I work professionally in an area of abust and manipulation and this is a ckassic case. I fully expect one of them to have ‘terminal’ cancer soon. Or some other tragedy to befall them when the suicide talk fails to land.

It might be best for the next six months to a year to go low or better still no contact with the entire family op. For now. If they don’t have the emotional intelligence and for sight to see they are being used as flying monkeys, then they are not good people to have around, and are no doubt reporting everything back. I doubt you can fully trust them.

I really feel for your dh, he was a child victim of physical and emotional abuse, and they are continuing to openly abuse him into adulthood. Almost stalking behaviour and certainly harassment.

In your place I would seriously consider getting a restraining order. Your dh deserves to live in peace and to enjoy his life free from such harm. Your dc need to be protected from them at all costs.

Look into serving a restraining order and consider whether it is in your interests tio be in close contact with the rest of the family for now. As iIt is currently being used as a channel to continue the abuse.

Yoyr dh is lucky to have you op, you sound lovely.

Edited

Thank you. This a really good, though very sad, summary.

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Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 12:51

AnotherEmma · 18/11/2024 09:44

Do you have any experience at all of childhood abuse? Dysfunctional and toxic family members?

Based on your post, I highly doubt it.

No contact is FAR from the easy option. Its like a bereavement, as a PP pointed out, with the additional pain of guilt-tripping from misguided people like you.

Some people actually DON'T change and it is part of the healing process to accept this, to accept that they won't change and the best way to protect yourself from further hurt it to walk away from them.

No contact is the lesser of the evils. Most people do try to reason with unreasonable people for quite some time before they give up and go no contact. OP and her DH have tried and have no obligation to anyone to try any more.

Show quote history

Thank you for understanding. We have tried so hard, for so long (and DH for his entire life!) . As you say, no contact is in now way an easy option

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Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 13:00

Artistbythewater · 18/11/2024 09:48

My parents tried to drag my children into their manipulation too. It gets even worse once the children are old enough for phones. Then the gps will have unrestricted access to your children - and will slowly poison your children against you (as my mother did) it starts slowly by undermining your parenting and authority, lying, making you the bad guy, and building and love bombing the children.
Children are uniquely susceptible, because they will naturally trust a close family member. Before you know it, the grandparents will be manipulating, gas lighting and eventually abusing your children. The ultimate goal here is to continue the cycle of abuse.

I can not stress to you the importance of you holding the line here, even when your dh will inevitably waver. You must never allow your children near them under any my circumstances.

If they truly cared about your children they wouldn’t be doing this in the first place and inflicting such pain and misery on you as their parents. Threatening you and scaring you witless. That is not loving your grandchildren! It is pure abuse.

Edited

Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry this has been your experience, I could picture this being exactly the way the relationship could progress for us too. We keep saying maybe we've had a lucky escape, that they went so nuclear when the kids are young enough that they don't have an independent relationship with them. The boxes of presents have been arriving :( which feels a bit like an invasion in itself

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Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 13:06

AnotherEmma · 18/11/2024 09:44

Do you have any experience at all of childhood abuse? Dysfunctional and toxic family members?

Based on your post, I highly doubt it.

No contact is FAR from the easy option. Its like a bereavement, as a PP pointed out, with the additional pain of guilt-tripping from misguided people like you.

Some people actually DON'T change and it is part of the healing process to accept this, to accept that they won't change and the best way to protect yourself from further hurt it to walk away from them.

No contact is the lesser of the evils. Most people do try to reason with unreasonable people for quite some time before they give up and go no contact. OP and her DH have tried and have no obligation to anyone to try any more.

Show quote history

Thank you for this. We have tried so hard and have constantly changed our approach to try and make the relationship better, they, on the other hand, have not changed. At times they've temporarily changed an aspect of their behaviour, but they don't seem to be able to maintain it and then the next outburst is more awful than the last.

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Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 13:08

EdithBond · 18/11/2024 08:22

We’re all different, and every situation is different. Your DH’s parents sound like they’re used to controlling and getting their own way. Their behaviour is completely unacceptable. However, in case a my perspective helps, I found making a decision to end all contact too painful and stressful.

There’s no need for your DH to put pressure on himself to make this decision or inform his parents of it. It doesn’t have to be that final. He simply doesn’t have to communicate with them or see them when he doesn’t want to. It may turn out he never wants to. Or maybe after years have gone by and the children are young adults, and his parents are older and have maybe grown as people, he may want to see them again. So, he doesn’t have to decide now. Though, of course, it may help him mentally to do so. Something to explore with his counsellor.

I’d also be extremely careful about trusting the family member you mention. If they tell your in-laws news about you or the children, they could use it to manipulate the situation. It sounds like they’d go to any lengths. For example, when your DC are old enough to have their own phone, could this family member end up sharing their number with the in laws?

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That's true.

The idea of them having direct contact with the kids is actually terrifying. Goodness knows how they would manipulate them :(

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Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 13:09

Artistbythewater · 18/11/2024 12:09

I have an issue with presents. My parents continue to send them. This is the first year I am considering not sending or receiving any from family. I have some guilt around sending them back - how is this overcome?

Show quote history

This is so difficult. We've already been receiving boxes full of presents :(

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Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 13:11

Hiji · 18/11/2024 12:03

Its quite handy that abusive patterns of behaviour are so unoriginal and cliched as it gives you time to plan ahead. Its like toxic bingo.

I would also add to the above that gifts arriving - aiming to manipulate a response and contact with your DCs.

Advice is always very clear that these are not given to the DCs or any acknowlegment of receipt given to the ILs (i wont call them DGP/GPs as their behaviour doesnt warrant it). Treat them as the polluted missile intended for your family home and get them off the premises into the boot of your car to charity shop asap.

They may come to your home - get a ring doorbell. Tell them to leave and warn them that you will call the police. You can tell them in a brief one line email/text that they are not to make contact with you or your family ..... and if there are more than two further incidents you can reportto the police as this constitutes stalking/harassment. But you may choose to just ignore and not officially tell them that you are NC. I would intervene and stop any friend if they started relyinginfo to you - shut it down and out as it will mess with your head.

keep your DH busy in the present having positive times with healthy families. He has a lot to untangle and needs to continue to keep investing in professional support.

Just be prepared for the silly season coming up.....

Show quote history

The presents have already been arriving :( on the one hand we know something is coming around the Xmas season, but on the other, this is the first year we have total freedom to do what WE decide we want to do around Christmas, without fear of huge consequences and upset

OP posts:

Hoppinggreen · 18/11/2024 13:11

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 13:09

This is so difficult. We've already been receiving boxes full of presents :(

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Local charities such as The Salvation Army will most likely gratefully take these off your hands

Artistbythewater · 18/11/2024 13:14

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 13:11

The presents have already been arriving :( on the one hand we know something is coming around the Xmas season, but on the other, this is the first year we have total freedom to do what WE decide we want to do around Christmas, without fear of huge consequences and upset

Show quote history

How bloody liberating for you! It should not be like this. Your life is so precious, your children young for such a short time - it can not be over shadowed by bad characters in your dhs family.

Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 13:17

Fraaahnces · 18/11/2024 11:02

Hi @GoldPombear I hate to say this but you can totally expect the crazy to really amp up over the Holiday period because they want photos of the kids to share on FB. I would recommend going away if you possibly can for the weeks preceding Christmas. In this time you can expect -

Health Crises - “Mum’s in hospital with a suspected heart attack”. (It will be a panic attack/anxiety - all your fault) or “Suspected Cancer” (Constipation/IBS- again, your fault.)
”Suicide Attempts” (Usually staged “overdoses” and mixed pills and alcohol)
”Car Accidents” - all your fault as they “can’t concentrate on anything else.” Or “They were drinking because they were so very depressed.”

The Flying Monkeys will up the ante re Christmas Day guilt trips
“Ah, your mother won’t be able to live with herself if she can’t be there to watch the kids open their presents first thing in the morning…” (DON’T BE HOME)
”Your parents are desperately lonely and it could be their last one. It’s only one meal a year. You should swallow your pride for the sake of the kids.”

There will be zero accountability. Zero genuine apology. Zero boundaries. This has to come from you. If you don’t, they will use their money to divide and conquer you from your kids.

We've had health crisis' in the past, so I fully expect that this will be the way things go next :(

I think you're right there will be something over the Xmas period, but hopefully we can stay strong and not allow it to ruin our Christmas, and at least we won't be walking on eggshells over the holidays, trying to make people happy, who are never ever happy

OP posts:

Original poster

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 13:18

Artistbythewater · 18/11/2024 13:14

How bloody liberating for you! It should not be like this. Your life is so precious, your children young for such a short time - it can not be over shadowed by bad characters in your dhs family.

Show quote history

SUCH a good point. Thank you for focusing my mind on enjoying these few Christmases while the kids are small

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AnotherEmma · 18/11/2024 13:19

Our first Christmas without seeing PILs was a bit weird and sad. But it is mostly a relief. We have got used to it now. PILs still send gifts for the children sometimes (birthdays and Christmas) and to begin with we felt obligated to give the presents and thank PILs, but after a while we stopped acknowledging them and we are selective about what we give to the kids too, some of it we give to charity. I find the gifts just make me think of PILs so it's better not to allow them to invade our home and minds in that way (sadly).

Meadowfinch · 18/11/2024 13:23

Grandparents have no rights to your children. They tried to do this without even consulting you. They were abusive to your dh to the point he has an anxiety order.

I'd reduce their visiting to twice a year (Xmas and Birthday) maximum and never leave any of my dcs alone with them ever again.

They sound vile, completely barking. Why maintain a relationship at all?

IdylicDay · 18/11/2024 13:42

GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 13:11

The presents have already been arriving :( on the one hand we know something is coming around the Xmas season, but on the other, this is the first year we have total freedom to do what WE decide we want to do around Christmas, without fear of huge consequences and upset

Show quote history

Can you write return to sender on the parcels?