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Legal matters

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In-laws seeking legal right to access our children

349 replies

GoldPombear · 19/09/2024 10:39

So, my in-laws are very difficult people. We have tried hard to maintain a positive relationship with them and there are bad times and more manageable times. But they essentially always cause me anxiety and cause my husband great upset and mental health breakdowns (he has generalised anxiety disorder). We have three children, and since our engagement, and then first pregnancy, the bad times have got worse.

More recently, things have been more settled, so we had been seeing them more (they live 130 miles away). However, they were/ are emotionally abusive and were physically abusive towards my husband in the past. So they don't have unsupervised contact with our three children (all under 6). (There is one exception, when our son was small we went to a funeral and they looked after him nearby while we were in the church service). However, we can never do enough, we are never in the right, they are very controlling and are incredibly entitled in relation to our children. When they have these horrible outbursts, they never apologise, they blame us and then start throwing money at the situation, bug presents etc. However, they haven't directly done anything to harm or upset our children, if they did it would be clear cut.

Out of the blue, they told us that they had met with a solicitor to get access to our children. I can't explain the visceral impact of hearing this. I do not trust them but I never thought they could stoop this low. Reading online it doesn't seem to say they have much of a case, though they have a lot of money they could throw at the situation if they wanted to. They seem to be seeking contact without us, but again I don't think this would be granted. Anyway, we suspect they have been told to sort the relationship with us, as they brought up going to mediation.

I think I'm asking what other people would do? I can't see how the relationship can be repaired from this and I'm not sure I want it to be repaired. But they aren't my parents and my husband is understandably very confused.

If the legal advice had told them they had a good case, I suspect they would have proceeded and we would have had a letter in the post. But now they haven't got the answer they wanted.

Would other people try and maintain this relationship? Or is all trust broken? I know they are relatives, but they have caused so much pain and stress and unnecessary drama ovet all the years i have known them, that I can't see much benefit for my children for us to continue this relationship......

OP posts:
GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 04:39

LookItsMeAgain · 17/11/2024 15:11

I 100% agree with this.

This 'family member' is behaving like the text book 'Flying Monkey' that they are. They are not helpful, they are not useful to have around, they are actually quite dangerous in their way - because they can play whispers with whatever titbits of information they come into and put their spin on how they present it.

After reading your update about what your FiL said he would do if the relationship breaks down, well, that would be entirely on him. What I would do immediately is set up new email addresses and give those new ones out to schools/GP's/whoever might need them. Leave the existing ones for these family members to communicate to. I'd also get new mobile numbers and I'd use these new numbers for personal calls/business and leave the existing ones for the family to communicate to. You won't read anything that goes into those mailboxes or answer any phone calls you get on the old numbers because they will be from the family.

I'd then begin a search to find somewhere new to live and if it's not a million miles away from where you are currently, but is far enough from them, then I'd move and see if it might be possible to WFH for a bit from your employer if that might be something that could affect a move.

Then just don't respond to any interfering family members.

All good advice I think. I'm going to talk to my husband about the family members, as I don't think they were doing it to be cruel, just panicking about hearing FIL saying something like that, though if they continued to tell us that info when we have asked not to hear it, that would be different

OP posts:
GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 04:41

Hiji · 17/11/2024 14:47

If the suicide threats arnt working expect another invented 'crisis' to whistle you back .... likley health crisis etc - even if its real do not respond.

You need to literally see these people as dangerous hyenyas and keep away.

Dont discuss anything with other family or friends who are in contact with them.

It's so interesting that you said this, as before the suicide talk, my husband and I had been talking and saying that we expected some sort of health crisis to emerge!

OP posts:
GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 04:44

AcrossthePond55 · 17/11/2024 14:17

@GoldPombear

Look up 'flying monkeys'. The relatives who told your DH about the suicide threat are flying monkeys (FM), either wittingly or unwittingly. The unwitting ones will usually back off once you tell them you don't want to hear what they have to say. The witting ones are a lost cause. You can expect more of them. And if it hasn't happened yet, there will be tales of heart trouble, cancer, and all sorts of serious illnesses, including mysterious ones that will 'end in death' relayed by FM if you don't nip it in the bud. I'm actually sort of surprised that the iLs brought out the 'big guns' of suicide before they tried to 'sweet talk' you. Suicide is usually the threat of last resort.

As far as explaining to the FM (or anyone else) why you wish NC with DH's parents, you really don't have to. It is enough to say "We have reasons that we do not wish to discuss. Please respect that and do not mention X and Y to us and please do not tell us what they're saying and doing. We don't want to know". If they can't accept that, then they'll continue to do it and will never 'have your backs'. Just know that as sad as it is, there will be 'losses' for your DH in people who will take your iLs side. I'm glad he's getting counseling, it will really help him sort the wheat from the chaff.

We were expecting health crises to emerge, so interesting that you and another poster have guessed that too. I don't think dh would be managing so well without the counsellor.

You're right. Being very clear is key. On this occasion I don't think the FM would have told us to be unkind, I think they would have thought we needed to know, and were probably panicking about holding that kind of info. But once we've told them we don't want the information passing in either direction, if they don't respect that, that's different. Thanks

OP posts:
GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 04:46

Spenditlikebeckham · 17/11/2024 12:24

Silence is golden. Never contact them whatsoever.. My dm sent me lots of Woe Is Me letters. Binned and never responded. She got the message.. If the family member mentions them suggest they ring the police for a welfare check of they are so concerned but it's not your business anymore.

Calling the police, or another agency is a good line

OP posts:
GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 04:47

OhBeAFineGuyKissMe · 17/11/2024 09:15

I would only write a letter if you get contact that is unwanted, anything wit emotional manipulation. That way you have evidence that communication. Is unwanted and you can gather evidence to go down the harassment route.

If you need to go down this, and hopefully you won’t, then a solicitorsletter is better as you have evidence it was sent and can’t be misconstrued.

Look out for flying monkeys, (from the wizard of oz when the witch sends her monkeys out to hassle Dorothy et al…). You will get other relatives saying how hurt and upset your ILs are, expressing bafflement etc… Having some stock phrases to respond to this is really useful. “Communication has broken down due to their poor bahviour, we don’t want to discuss it further. How is my dear niece getting on with…”

Thanks
Yeah planned phrases to keep things simple is a good idea

OP posts:
GoldPombear · 18/11/2024 04:49

TheSilkWorm · 17/11/2024 08:48

Has your DH cut contact too? He really needs to. His mental health difficulties are likely 99% due to their treatment of him.

He is kind of in the process, he told them he needed a certain timeline without contact as he didn't know what to do, but he now wants that to be his approach long term. I think in the long run it will be hugely beneficial to his mental health

OP posts:
mrssunshinexxx · 18/11/2024 04:49

Support your husband that they've already damaged and cut them off. Book him some great therapy to talk it all through.

user1492757084 · 18/11/2024 05:29

Can you agree to mediation with the view of using the mediation to help emphasise that they tried to gain access to your children without you? Therefore, you feel the only way forward is to go no contact, given past abuse of your DH.

A mediator might help them understand your new stance.

Would you ever agree to supervised monthly visits?

HappyTwo · 18/11/2024 06:31

i’m sorry they sound vile
as others have said get some legal advice
if your husband has evidence of their abuse (maybe a therapist he saw in the past would agree to write a letter?) I would start gathering that

LurkingFromTheShadows · 18/11/2024 06:43

They sound like disgusting human beings. The threat of suicide is a tactic to manipulate and control. It's good your DH is having counselling.
Cutting all contact is definitely what needs to be done to protect you all, especially your children. Hope your DH gets there soon.

user1471538283 · 18/11/2024 06:46

This is to bully you into letting them see your DC more. Some lawyers will just take the money and they will have told them a ridiculous story. The DC are your children. If they wanted a relationship with your DC they shouldn't have done what they did.

Cut all contact right now. Even if it gets to court I can't see a judge allowing it. No one cuts contact for no reason.

premierleague · 18/11/2024 06:50

There was a thread on here recently about some grandparents who did this. They got laughed out of court.

SnowLeopard5 · 18/11/2024 06:51

They've likely made that up! Definitely go now contact. Could you look at moving further away and not telling them where you live and block them?

SnowLeopard5 · 18/11/2024 06:51

No contact*

Chucklecheeks01 · 18/11/2024 06:52

Do not do mediation with an abuser. They have no legal standing. Doing mediation is enabling them.

Speak to a solicitor so when you decide to cut contact you know your rights.

I'd even go as far as asking a solicitor to write to them to stay away. Protect your children AND your husband.

Dillydollydingdong · 18/11/2024 07:05

There is no legal right for a grandparent to have contact with the grandchildren so your in-laws are on a hiding to nothing if they think a court would enforce it. No doubt they have been told this by their solicitors. Hence the threats to end it all! It's unlikely they'd do anything silly but even if they did, it's not your fault. They're adults, responsible for their own decisions.

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 18/11/2024 07:06

Blahblah34 · 19/09/2024 10:43

They've tried to get access to your children without your consent. Of course you can't ever trust them again. You should cut all ties.

This. And I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried to manufacture some sort of scenario to accuse you of being unfit parents. They might hope to be considered an appropriate placement/ for kinship care.

Do not give them access to your children and or your home!!

Allthehorsesintheworld · 18/11/2024 07:13

You don’t have to formalise no contact — just don’t contact them and be very careful what you say to the flying monkey relative. Pp suggestion about new emails and phone numbers is a good idea.
I just stopped contacting my parents and they didn’t bother contacting me. It was a great relief.
Neither you or your DH owes these toxic people anything. Try to see them as just two rather nasty, busy body random people you’d not choose as friends , I found that made it easier.

MrMucker · 18/11/2024 07:13

Doing mediation is also something you can do to demonstrate you have tried everything.
what do you say in the future to your children who ask "why don't we see those gps?"
Do you tell them "nah, cut contact, couldn't stand them"
or do you tell them "we tried everything but it just didn't work getting along together".

The whole point of mediation is for both parties to have a chance to say what they think and feel. When else are you going to get a chance to say to their faces what you have said here? How else are they ever going to understand what it is that is holding you back from them?

If they are "emotionally abusive" then mediation is generally accepted as an excellent opportunity to point this out.
I'm sorry there are so many people supporting non contact. These are key people in yours, your husbands and your children's family make up. You cannot abnegate a blood relationship in this way without it becoming a nasty cemented ongoing family rift. No one is unable to change, and if you presented the issue as you have spelled it out here, that is their catalyst to change.

No contact without mediation seals things and prevents any change whatsoever.
It's the easy option I suppose.

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 18/11/2024 07:14

S0CKPUPPET · 19/09/2024 15:50

I have a close friend who was in a similar situation to you. Their in-laws case was equally as hopeless as yours. Everyone they spoke to about it said they had no chance – just the same as you.

However the problem was that it took them about £20,000 and two years out their lives to get through the court process. At the end of this they finally got in front of a decisionmaker who said “ this is nonsense. I am if you want a relationship with the children, go and mend the bridges you have burned with the children’ parents “.

so yes, your in-laws main objective maybe to see the children unsupervised and without your consent. However, their secondary objective may be to abuse you through the legal process, as a punishment for not doing what they want.

The problem is that rich and plausible people can use the law to do this against people of modest means.

What happens in my friends Children’s case was that they were months of exchanges of letters between solicitors, which ran up the bills, lots of reports requested from various experts for which the children’s parents had to give access and take time off work to have meetings.

The In laws reported them to social services so there was an investigation. Social workers who are apparently too busy to investigate actual cases of abuse seemed to have plenty time for lots of visits , always in the day of course and so both parents had to use up their annual leave .

Social workers also demanded that the children were kept off school for these visits , otherwise they would attend the school to see them .

Then they requested reports from the GP, the school and the nursery.

During these SW visits, the parents had to pretend to be 100% happy with everything that was going on. As soon as The expressed even the slightest concern, this apparently was a HUGE red flags because the social workers had decided that anyone who doesn’t enjoy their visit is obviously hiding something and is probably abusive.

There were many prehearings in court at which either the case didn’t call or it did call but the other party's solicitors hadn’t turned up. Or the other party’s solicitor had turned up but didn’t have the necessary documents . So the case was postponed to another date a few months hence. This is why it dragged on for about two years .

So my advice is that you don’t instruct a solicitors right now, otherwise you lose control as the two lawyers just send endless emails to each other, run up bills and waste time.

I advise that you DO go to mediation. Don’t see this is a way of potentially giving the in-laws access to your children. See it as a means of delaying or possibly preventing legal action. Even if you can’t prevent it, you can use the process to show that you have been reasonable and corporative and also possibly to find out exactly what your in-laws want and what their main arguments are.

You dont have to go and sit in a room with them and discuss things. You can ask for shuffle mediation, where they are in one room you’re in another and the mediator goes between you. You can say this is for your husbands mental health.

remember it’s mediation and not therapy. Don’t pour out to the mediator how you’re feeling and how awful they have been. It’s understandable that you might want to do this but it’s not helpful . You have to speak all the time about the children and what is in their best interest.

Your bottom line needs to be that the relationship between yourselves and your in-laws has irretrievably broken down ( partly because of their behaviour over the years and now because of this legal threat ) and therefore it’s impossible to see how it’s in your children interest to have a relationship with the in-laws without you. Of course, when the children are adults and in a position to decide for themselves, you will support them in whatever they decide if they wish to have a relationship with the grandparents.

Maybe you want to offer some sort of non face to face contact, like the exchange of cards at birthdays and Christmas . Or perhaps a zoom call twice a year - this is a good one to offer if your kids are small as they will get bored after 5 mins. Id not offer to allow IL to send gifts as this has been abused in the past.

You may want to suggest they put money in a bank account which YOU hold in trust for the children as they will almost certainly refuse that. you want to offer things that you can agree to without too much stress, it doesn’t matter if they refuse .

your husband should tell the mediator about the abuse that he suffered as a child. I know that this may possibly be very distressing for him but he doesn’t really have an option now, I’m afraid. Not the details, but he needs to say how they were physically/ emotionally abusive and how they are still trying to control him as adult.

I think if you don’t mention this now, it might look less plausible if you literally mention it in court. But I know it’s not easy . You can ask the mediator to keep some things confidential.

you can explain that because of this history of abuse, you had tried to find some compromise with the in-laws to let them see the children under your supervision. You had thought that they might have changed and that you could keep your children safe, but sadly this is proved not to be the case and you realise that you made a mistake to even try this . You were only trying to give your children the opportunity to have some limited but positive relationship with their grandparents but you now realise that this can’t happen , which is very sad for your children. That’s is not about the Gp wishes , it’s about the children’s welfare.

This is really good advice. And yes, mediation is not therapy. Do not treat it as therapy.

therapy for your DH to work through his childhood trauma (and get it documented…) is however a good idea. If he isn’t already going.
This is something OP may want to consider as well. Documenting how distressing the thought of her DH‘s abusers wanting unsupervised access to their DC has been for her.

BrokenSushiLook · 18/11/2024 07:35

@MrMucker it's generally known and understood by everyone involved in mediation that it's a really bad idea to engage in mediation with abusive people. It's quite obvious that the unreasonable inlaws would use any such opportunity for manipulation, lies and DARVO tactics.

Mediation works when two sides are generally rational people who aren't actively malicious but just have very different points of view. Mediation does not work with irrational narcissists.

Cyclebabble · 18/11/2024 07:39

MrMucker · 18/11/2024 07:13

Doing mediation is also something you can do to demonstrate you have tried everything.
what do you say in the future to your children who ask "why don't we see those gps?"
Do you tell them "nah, cut contact, couldn't stand them"
or do you tell them "we tried everything but it just didn't work getting along together".

The whole point of mediation is for both parties to have a chance to say what they think and feel. When else are you going to get a chance to say to their faces what you have said here? How else are they ever going to understand what it is that is holding you back from them?

If they are "emotionally abusive" then mediation is generally accepted as an excellent opportunity to point this out.
I'm sorry there are so many people supporting non contact. These are key people in yours, your husbands and your children's family make up. You cannot abnegate a blood relationship in this way without it becoming a nasty cemented ongoing family rift. No one is unable to change, and if you presented the issue as you have spelled it out here, that is their catalyst to change.

No contact without mediation seals things and prevents any change whatsoever.
It's the easy option I suppose.

No one experiencing serious abuse from a parent should enter mediation and no counsellor or professional mediator would expect them to either. Did you read the thread? It would be quite simple to answer the children’s question by saying those grandparents did some not very nice things to us all and we do not see them as we wanted to protect ourselves and you from anything nasty.

Artistbythewater · 18/11/2024 08:08

Your in laws are really throwing everything at this aren’t they. Slow clap for them. They are determined to break your husband and bring him to his knees. I work professionally in an area of abust and manipulation and this is a ckassic case. I fully expect one of them to have ‘terminal’ cancer soon. Or some other tragedy to befall them when the suicide talk fails to land.

It might be best for the next six months to a year to go low or better still no contact with the entire family op. For now. If they don’t have the emotional intelligence and for sight to see they are being used as flying monkeys, then they are not good people to have around, and are no doubt reporting everything back. I doubt you can fully trust them.

I really feel for your dh, he was a child victim of physical and emotional abuse, and they are continuing to openly abuse him into adulthood. Almost stalking behaviour and certainly harassment.

In your place I would seriously consider getting a restraining order. Your dh deserves to live in peace and to enjoy his life free from such harm. Your dc need to be protected from them at all costs.

Look into serving a restraining order and consider whether it is in your interests tio be in close contact with the rest of the family for now. As iIt is currently being used as a channel to continue the abuse.

Yoyr dh is lucky to have you op, you sound lovely.

Artistbythewater · 18/11/2024 08:11

Yes and to the children tell the truth that gps are not kind to Daddy, so we won’t be seeing them. Then change the subject. They will soon forget them - children’s primary concern are the close and loving relationship with their parent(s) all other relationships are optional.

Artistbythewater · 18/11/2024 08:22

MrMucker · 18/11/2024 07:13

Doing mediation is also something you can do to demonstrate you have tried everything.
what do you say in the future to your children who ask "why don't we see those gps?"
Do you tell them "nah, cut contact, couldn't stand them"
or do you tell them "we tried everything but it just didn't work getting along together".

The whole point of mediation is for both parties to have a chance to say what they think and feel. When else are you going to get a chance to say to their faces what you have said here? How else are they ever going to understand what it is that is holding you back from them?

If they are "emotionally abusive" then mediation is generally accepted as an excellent opportunity to point this out.
I'm sorry there are so many people supporting non contact. These are key people in yours, your husbands and your children's family make up. You cannot abnegate a blood relationship in this way without it becoming a nasty cemented ongoing family rift. No one is unable to change, and if you presented the issue as you have spelled it out here, that is their catalyst to change.

No contact without mediation seals things and prevents any change whatsoever.
It's the easy option I suppose.

I think this might be your mother in law op. Meditation is NEVER ever recommended in situations of any kind of abuse. Please feel free to check. It’s one of the reasons it’s never recommended in domestic violence courts etc.
It just gives the abusers a platform to continue their harm and abuse. Absolutely do not even entertain it, and I imagine even if you did the lead counsellor would stop proceedings when the facts became known.