partner has our child and is refusing to return to the UK

[davejohns]

So we went for a holiday to her home country in the EU, and I had to return a week early for work reasons. On the eve that she and our child was suppose to fly back, she said didn't want to come back. I'm trying to keep things amicable at the moment and intend to fly back out there and resolve things, and is it stands we are not separated, but if that falls apart legally is that still abduction if I do not consent to our child not returning?

This is a very stressful time for me. Thanks for reading

@Namechangefrustration . Your judgements against me are inaccurate and defamatory

Chill your tits, it's Mumsnet not the Old Bailey. It's a discussion forum. We can say whatever we like within Talk Guidelines. I think you're being quite ridiculous.

The questions posed by the OP are in Legal Matters.

Indeed they are, and I want to know why this woman has taken the highly unusual decision to place herself in legal jeopardy before handing someone ammunition to use against her, potentially to remove the child from her or make her choose between living in Poland and only occasionally seeing her child, or going back to the UK where she clearly does not want to live.

There are all sorts of places this OP could have gone to find reliable legal advice. A talk forum isn't one of them. All he had to do was google child abduction solicitors. Is there a reason he wanted an audience of mostly women for his predicament?

Many women post here asking for legal advice. Maybe it’s time to shut down the sub forum and replace it with an announcement to Google a solicitor. Given some of the posts on this thread, I think that would be quite sensible.

maybe go onto some forum about life in Poland.
Not sure the Polish courts would see this as 'abduction'.
She could present it as she was running away from an abusive and or unhappy marriage and the court would take her side.
but hire a lawyer don't ask randoms,,, what do we know

There are all sorts of places this OP could have gone to find reliable legal advice. A talk forum isn't one of them. All he had to do was google child abduction solicitors. Is there a reason he wanted an audience of mostly women for his predicament?

Best close down whole sections of MN then if that's the road you are going down. Legal Matters, Divorce, Finance, Education Health etc etc as there are better places to go than a talk forum.

It seems some will seriously see women as never being wrong, or there must be a reason for it.

I would place money on the fact the same sympathy isn't given when fathers abduct DC.

My ex took my daughter from me without giving me any notice when she was 1 and left saying I was an abuser. Some people seem to think men are emotionless - I cried more in that week for my missing child than I had in my life. Days and hours seem like forever when this happens to you.

This happened to the OP over the weekend so he was probably desperate and couldn’t have got legal advice. A desperate parent can post wherever they like. Although I would recommend he joined a forum like Families Need Fathers as the advice is generally excellent and he will get support there.

Peoples motives won’t always make sense and I had the same issue “she must have been abused because why else would she leave”. It’s a bit like saying in the 70s “she must have done something wrong to get punched”.

I still have trauma from the vilification and horrendous allegations. I don’t think when people are doing the vilifying they realise how horrible it is so please think before suggesting the OP had done something wrong especially during a difficult time.

Irrelevant, UK law would apply.

yes maybe in theory that is true but that is what i am saying about Poland, and its courts, is that OP might not find it that simple.
Easy to ignore a UK court order even if one is made.

Best close down whole sections of MN then if that's the road you are going down. Legal Matters, Divorce, Finance, Education Health etc etc as there are better places to go than a talk forum.

Not so fast there - for legal matters it certainly helps to get qualified legal advice so I would have no problem shutting down this particular board. Anyone can announce 'Solicitor here..' and proceed to give ridiculously inaccurate advice. People come here asking randoms on the internet for legal advice and the most useful advice they will get is to go and find an actual, real life solicitor or go to the Citizens' Advice Bureau.

Divorce, Finance, Education, Health - you don't need specialised qualifications to deliver solid advice.

It seems some will seriously see women as never being wrong, or there must be a reason for it.
It seems some people have a little bit of an agenda bubbling away here. The vast majority of abused parties in intimate relationships are women. Quibble all you like and bleat about misandry, but there usually is a reason for a woman to leave with her child. Trying to find out what a "strained relationship" looks like isn't unreasonable here.

I would place money on the fact the same sympathy isn't given when fathers abduct DC.
No, the same sympathy isn't in evidence, because 92% of abductions by fathers are abductions where a child ends up in North Africa or the Middle East, where women have few rights, and where very few countries are signatories of the Hague Convention. The chances of ever seeing your child again are statistically slim to none if your child is among the vast, vast majority who are taken to one of the non-Hague signatory countries.

Not at all. Poland is a Hague Convention country so an order made in the UK court would be adhered to, and the child would have to be returned.

I don’t think people should post advice on the legal advice board if they don’t understand these things.

It seems some people have a little bit of an agenda bubbling away here. The vast majority of abused parties in intimate relationships are women. Quibble all you like and bleat about misandry, but there usually is a reason for a woman to leave with her child. Trying to find out what a "strained relationship" looks like isn't unreasonable here
It is, it really is. My mum took me abroad when I was one. My father was in no way abusive. Why did she do it? Because she decided she didn't want to be with my dad any longer, was young, and the logical thing to do was move where her parents were. Nothing more into to it.

In my case, my dad took a flight, came knocking on the door and my grand dad agreed with him so handed me over. My mum had to come back. Thankfully, she then started to act as a grown up, my dad gave me back to her, she stayed, and I grew up normally seeing my dad regularly.

Your attitude to 'the nan must has done something wrong' is exactly what makes men grow unrespectful of women. If whatever you do, you're going to be blamed or find fault with, you might as well not care and act wrongly.

OP I hope 6ouve made your way there and got your child back since you've first posted.

men who dont even bother marrying their lovely Polish girlfriends

What makes you think he 'didn't bother'? Maybe it was her choice not to get married? Maybe it was a joint decision? Maybe they were planning to get married pre-covid and haven't been able to rearrange yet?

Actually Barry… your advice is also wrong, The Hague Convention would only apply if there is a court order or process in court for the care of that child. Most kids taken abroad as in the case of the OP are not protected by The Hague Convention and it may take years to have them returned, if they are at all.

You went as a family and aren’t separated so it’s not grounds for abduction as she isn’t keeping the child from you, she is just refusing to return to the uk. The courts can advise but she won’t lose custody as she hasn’t officially left the uk or you as she hasn’t removed all of her belongings and returned home. I would just talk to her and see if maybe she needs to spend some more time at home. It must be lonely in a foreign country with a baby and husband working

Nonsense - they went as a family on the understanding (on OP's part) that it was a holiday. No it's not classed as abduction yet but if they fail to return on the planned flight that's the first step to it being so. She won't lose custody no, but she will be ordered to return the dc if OP goes to court to action this. Just letting them stay is risky for a number of reasons.

Well yes, which is why I said “so an order made in the UK court would be adhered to” 🤨

OP could make an emergency application today in the UK courts which have jurisdiction based on normal residence, and an order could be made very quickly for the return of the child even on an interim basis while the issues were resolved. It wouldn’t take years. I’ve seen a number of such cases.

Definitely wouldn't take years. There is a ready set out process for this. It's absolutely a Hague convention matter the minute OP wishes it to be . Yes a court order needs to be made but this can be done quickly as it's a priority matter.

Sorry, but that is just nonsense, legally.

If this was my child, I think I would go back to Poland, speak to my “partner” and pretend that I am considering moving there. I would talk it through so you understand her feelings as much as possible. Then I would take my baby for a walk or to go get milk and get a plane home with baby.
Take emergency leave from work to keep baby with me every second of every day.
Immediately file an emergency court order in which you make it clear you want baby to always see Mum but must not go abroad.
I would forever be worried she would take my child while I was at work or the shops and this time she would make sure I would never see them again.

@SullysBabyMama or could just do it the proper legal way so it's set in stone. FFS what terrible advice and is that in the child's best interest do you think? To think they are being taken to the shop the. Whisked away from mum on a plane. Not to mention if OP's partner thinks he's agreed to the love and that is now their home that makes him possibly being the abductor

But I'm not posting bollocks. The Hague convention is something I know about in great detail.

I'm very sorry, I quoted you by accident and I have reported my post.