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Legal matters

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Original poster

partner has our child and is refusing to return to the UK

201 replies

davejohns · 18/06/2022 22:52

So we went for a holiday to her home country in the EU, and I had to return a week early for work reasons. On the eve that she and our child was suppose to fly back, she said didn't want to come back. I'm trying to keep things amicable at the moment and intend to fly back out there and resolve things, and is it stands we are not separated, but if that falls apart legally is that still abduction if I do not consent to our child not returning?

This is a very stressful time for me. Thanks for reading

OP posts:
Namechangefrustration · 19/06/2022 13:53

liveforsummer · 19/06/2022 13:52

Defamatory- Christ 😆. Anyway the courts will have all the info and will be able to make a decision based on the best interest of the child if OP can't get negation a suitable outcome on their own. We don't need to be in possession of the details as we have no part in the decision.

And do you know what defamatory means?

SapereAude · 19/06/2022 13:55

Namechangefrustration · 19/06/2022 13:40

Prove that I implied that this is the OPs fault. I simply suggested that as we don't have all the information, we cant rule out that this wasn't done in the best interest of the child. Your judgements against me are inaccurate and defamatory

Show quote history

Comments made towards you on this thread are most definitely not defamatory.

Your accusations towards the OP and your somewhat strange insistence on knowing what's going on inside the mother's head are open to interpretation.

You should perhaps stop derailing a serious thread with real people involved unless you have anything (legally) useful to add.

liveforsummer · 19/06/2022 13:55

Anyfeckinusername · 19/06/2022 13:51

OP, this IS abduction. That is a criminal offence. So yes you should get legal advice, but you can actually go straight to the police.

she is allowed to travel with her children for a limited number of days without your permission. Not permanently.

she could be summoned back to U.K. under The Hague convention. She is very likely to lose custody (if you so wanted her to lose it), back in the U.K.

I am on the other side of this; trying to leave the country with children, legally. The option to do what she is doing has been explained to me very clearly as a very disadvantaging action to take in the long run.

if you’re not separated, I think you should get into mediation with her asap. Good luck.

Not entirely true. At the moment this is a civil matter. Only when there is an order granted and ignored does it become a police/criminal matter (having also been on the other side for very good reasons).

lollipoprainbow · 19/06/2022 14:02

. Doesn't it make you wonder though, why the child would want to move so far away from the father, and the reasonings behind those decisions. I made my comment in the best interest of the child's wellbeing.

How many 2 year olds do you know who make decisions ???! You made your comment to be deliberately obtrusive towards the father and you know you did.

oviraptor21 · 19/06/2022 14:03

Just posting a couple of links to get the thread back on topic.

OP this guidance may help you
www.gov.uk/government/publications/international-parental-child-abduction

And a PP recommended
www.reunite.org/

Mariposista · 19/06/2022 14:06

oviraptor21 · 19/06/2022 13:51

Luckily the law doesn't agree with you.

Show quote history

She wants to go? fine, But leave the child behind. I bet she'd change her tune then. This thread has me spitting feathers. I really hope the OP gets a positive outcome (couldn't care less about the ex partner).

Anyfeckinusername · 19/06/2022 14:25

liveforsummer · 19/06/2022 13:55

Not entirely true. At the moment this is a civil matter. Only when there is an order granted and ignored does it become a police/criminal matter (having also been on the other side for very good reasons).

Show quote history

I can’t agree, not the advice I received from my solicitor but I am not here to derail the OPs thread. I do not have a child arrangement order and have been advised it is a criminal offence to remove my child permanently from the jurisdiction without consent. The fact I do not have a child arrangement order has been irrelevant.

Perhaps your lawyers have chosen to focus on that breach because you have an order in place.

PeekAtYou · 19/06/2022 14:27

Outrageous to assume that OP has done something which means his wife and child has to escape overseas to safety.

If she wants to live with her child back in a Poland then this is not how to make that happen. She might not have intended to keep the child there when she flew out but if she wants to make it happen then getting permission from a UK court (as that's where the child is resident) or convincing the OP to live in Poland were legitimate options.

At least OP now knows that if he tries living in Poland and wants to return to the UK then he can't do that as the child would be legally resident in Poland.

There's lots of threads on here where people discuss their ex flying back home with their children and the first question is always about getting the child back to the UK if they decide to stay there. There is nothing to suggest that the dad might kidnap the kids but I think it's fair that the OP is made aware that it does happen.

I'm guessing that nothing can be done until mum doesn't fly back on the date agreed because there is a small chance of that still happening.

liveforsummer · 19/06/2022 14:55

@Anyfeckinusername I didn't have an order in place at the time. My ex partner as called the police in 2 countries. Once when I had actually left and another to stop me going on a holiday. Neither were successful precisely because there was no order. If you could simply cal the police then court wouldn't be necessary?!

Laurajane1987 · 19/06/2022 15:00

You keep stating you have 'shared parental responsibility' legally you don't have that unless youve already been through a court and obtained it. If you wanted to argue a case of abduction you'd have to go to court, apply for joint custody and then once obtained you could argue she's holding the child in a foreign country without your permission. Without the legal stamp of joint custody, she is the primary parent right now, as you aren't married and the child is with her, so youd have to prove that she's witholding access to the child. Even so if she isn't willing to return and you fought for joint custody the child would still have to move between the countries to visit you and her unless you apply for sole custody, which to be frank is highly unlikely you'd get with mum being in a different country.

liveforsummer · 19/06/2022 15:04

@Laurajane1987 totally untrue. Since 2003 if a father is on the north certificate they have joint parental rights/responsibility

liveforsummer · 19/06/2022 15:05

*birth

Orchardsandpianos · 19/06/2022 15:06

Laurajane1987 · 19/06/2022 15:00

You keep stating you have 'shared parental responsibility' legally you don't have that unless youve already been through a court and obtained it. If you wanted to argue a case of abduction you'd have to go to court, apply for joint custody and then once obtained you could argue she's holding the child in a foreign country without your permission. Without the legal stamp of joint custody, she is the primary parent right now, as you aren't married and the child is with her, so youd have to prove that she's witholding access to the child. Even so if she isn't willing to return and you fought for joint custody the child would still have to move between the countries to visit you and her unless you apply for sole custody, which to be frank is highly unlikely you'd get with mum being in a different country.

He's on the birth certificate so he has shared parental responsibility, and the mother has to get his written consent to move the child abroad without him

oviraptor21 · 19/06/2022 15:07

liveforsummer · 19/06/2022 15:04

@Laurajane1987 totally untrue. Since 2003 if a father is on the north certificate they have joint parental rights/responsibility

This. OP said his name is on the birth certificate.

liveforsummer · 19/06/2022 15:11

Even so if she isn't willing to return and you fought for joint custody the child would still have to move between the countries to visit you

Another totally false piece of information. Why are you just making things up. The Hague convention is here specifically for these situations. If OP goes to court and requests it she HAS to bring the child back. Any custody case needs heard in the UK and it's rare courts grant children to be taken away from a loving parent and their habitual residence.

PaddingtonBearStareAgain · 19/06/2022 15:13

Laurajane1987 · 19/06/2022 15:00

You keep stating you have 'shared parental responsibility' legally you don't have that unless youve already been through a court and obtained it. If you wanted to argue a case of abduction you'd have to go to court, apply for joint custody and then once obtained you could argue she's holding the child in a foreign country without your permission. Without the legal stamp of joint custody, she is the primary parent right now, as you aren't married and the child is with her, so youd have to prove that she's witholding access to the child. Even so if she isn't willing to return and you fought for joint custody the child would still have to move between the countries to visit you and her unless you apply for sole custody, which to be frank is highly unlikely you'd get with mum being in a different country.

Stop spouting absolute rubbish. This just isn't true and has pp has said, for a long time.

hashbrownsandwich · 19/06/2022 15:19

I'm by no means an expert on this but logically the fact that she has not been reasonable in terms of she's just decided on this and left you hanging, I can't see any judge being impressed with her. Particularly so if you have entertained the idea of possibly moving to Poland, approached in a rational way.

On the flip side, please be aware if you are separating it will get VERY nasty. She will portray you as the villain, anything to keep her child with her. So be prepared to stay calm and take some serious shit flinging.

You really do need to get legal advice immediately.

liveforsummer · 19/06/2022 15:28

It doesn't really matter if the judge is 'impressed' with her or not. That won't affect any decisions. Those will be made on what is in the best interests of the child who won't be punished for their mums actions PROVIDING she complies with court orders. Whether she has to return the child to the UK isn't in question providing OP has been truthful with the information. That is something that legally has to happen if he requests it and is quite black and white. Of course if it turns out the OP agreed to the move then changed their mind then that's more of a grey area but taking it on face value is all we can do here

heavyistheheed · 19/06/2022 16:51

This sounds like an absolute night Op. I'm so sorry this is happening.
I hope you get proper legal advice tomorrow, some of what is being spouted by posters on here is complete claptrap

MumbleAlwaysMumble · 19/06/2022 17:38

SapereAude · 19/06/2022 13:09

None of which is relevant to the fact that the Op's child, as the law stands, has been abducted by the mother.

The whys and wherefores of the break up of a relationship are for another thread and another time.

A counsellor will tell the OP to work through why the relationship broke down.
A solicitor will tell him what to do to get an illegal act taken to the courts. Right now, the OP needs the second one.

Show quote history

I think you missed my point.

I did say it was important to get legal advice!

But a better way to handle the situation is to try and work with her rather than go in all guns blazing.
1- because sorting out stuff the legal way will take (a lot of ?) time
2- because it’s likely to be much more stressful and hurtful for the CHILD if they end up being forcefully removed from their mum etc….

So I’d say yes the OP needs legal advice and he needs to understand what he can do.
But Id ALSO want to try and speak to her, understand what’s going on and find a way to solve the issue amicably. At the very least for the sake of the child. (and yes it means she needs to play ball too. But at least the OP will have tried)

liveforsummer · 19/06/2022 17:41

Finr to talk but get the legal advice first so prevent getting in a situation where it's not so easy to get dc back. No one is actually suggesting forcibly removing dc from their mum. Child's mum will be able to return with child.

Skeptadad · 19/06/2022 21:29

I got joint custody of my lovely daughter when she was 2. Some of her developmental scores were poor before I came along. Now she is smashing all of them.

Absolute tosh that dads are somehow weaker parents by virtue of their sex.

Applesandroses · 19/06/2022 21:31

Skeptadad · 19/06/2022 21:29

I got joint custody of my lovely daughter when she was 2. Some of her developmental scores were poor before I came along. Now she is smashing all of them.

Absolute tosh that dads are somehow weaker parents by virtue of their sex.

Absolutely agree, both parents are of equal importance and equal value

mathanxiety · 20/06/2022 04:27

just the normal stresses of having a baby and her homesickness.

What in your opinion are normal stresses of having a baby and being homesick?
Can you give some examples of stress you have observed?

Have you ever had a baby in a foreign country?

lollipoprainbow · 20/06/2022 06:41

@mathanxiety what's your point ???