So stressed - landlords are wanting us to pay for issues I don’t believe are our fault

[PinkLadiApples]

Hi, I really hope someone may be able to help me, will try to keep this readable.

We live in a flat above a restaurant, the entire building is owned by a lady who lives locally and she uses an estate agents to manage it. We moved in 3 months ago.

Last week, the people in the restaurant complained that suddenly every time we flushed the toilet, used the taps, the washing machine or the shower, water and toilet waste was coming through to them. We stopped immediately and called an emergency plumber out, who identified that the toilet pipes had become blocked and the reason was my partner was using flushable toilet wipes and they’d built up and caused this.

We were without access to our toilet, shower, washing machine and all taps for 5 days because various plumbers didn’t bother turning up, plus a builder and drain unblocker were needed to fix this. It was a huge massive job which was incredibly stressful and we had to use the restaurant downstairs toilet and sinks which was very kind of them.

That first night it happened, they had to close, understandably, and they’ve lost a lot of money from bookings. They’re a small independent family run restaurant so I realise this was a huge deal to them.

The narrative throughout these past few days was that it’s basically all our fault for using these wipes, the owner was hinting at this several times and said we’d hear from the estate agents soon. I should add, the area we live in is very very old and we’re actually in a listed building, she told us that pipes here extremely old and narrow and not like most places. However no one told us that when we moved here.

So today we’ve had an email saying the responsibility of all this is fully ours, and we’ll be invoiced soon for not only the plumbing and builder bills but for all lost income of the restaurant. We’ve checked our tenancy agreement and it just states we have to take reasonable precautions not to cause pipe blockages. Nothing about these particular pipes being extra narrow or old.

When we’ve said the toilet wipes packaging says it’s “Certified fine to flush” they’ve said everyone knows not to trust that, but I didn’t know!

If anyone knows where we stand legally please let me know, I’d be so grateful.

I really would not pay anything, the landlady should pay the plumbing bills and claim back from her insurance and the restaurant should claim from their insurance. This is not your fault as you DID take reasonable precautions as you used products that Sainsburies advise are safe to flush, and no one told you that your home had inadequate plumbing such that you could not use safe to flush items. You did everything that was reasonable.
And yes, I bet previous tenants had similar issues - ask the restuarant if anything like this has happened before.

@Ohmybod you're the one lacking common sense here - this is a buildings insurance matter. Tenants do not pay for buildings insurance, the property owner does. The OP could have paid for contents insurance, but that is totally irrelevant here as it covers personal effects.

I know you hate conflict, OP, but at the end of the day

A) you cannot pay because you don’t have that money to give (& in a way this is a good thing because if you did have it you’d feel morally obliged to pay and you’re not)

B) the other 2 parties have insurance - or bloody well should have as both are running a business where shit literally does sometimes happen!

C) the invoices are addressed to them as LL so they need to make a case to claim anything off you and that is expensive and time-consuming.

Your DP is right.

(Again, posting as a LL.)

[quote Shitandhills]@Ohmybod you're the one lacking common sense here - this is a buildings insurance matter. Tenants do not pay for buildings insurance, the property owner does. The OP could have paid for contents insurance, but that is totally irrelevant here as it covers personal effects.[/quote]
Have you not heard of tenants liability cover? It can be added to the contents cover and covers accidental damage to landlords property that you may be responsible for under your tenancy agreement. There is also get tenants accidental damage cover. All of which may have gone some if not all the way to covering this.

I lived above a small restaurant in an older property once upon a time and paid a higher premium for insurance there. My toilet once leaked into the restaurant and the tenants liability insurance covered costs for both my flat and the restaurant.

@Ohmybod fair enough - I stand corrected i hadn't actually heard of that. The only flood experience I've had was dealt with my the building's insurance.

I only read the first page and then this one. I was shocked at how everyone pilled in to say it’s your fault. The landlord and restaurant are obviously trying to control the narrative and make it all your fault. They will be well aware of issues with the plumbing. The landlord may well have claimed before because of this ( when different tenants were living there) and knows it will be harder to make a claim again. In your position I would fight back hard. It’s not ok for the landlord to say “ everyone knows not to flush these wipes”- they weren’t explicit about it either in the tenancy agreement , or verbally, or via email etc before this happened. You have been using the premises in a reasonable way ( using wipes as stated on the packaging). If you can afford legal representation get it, otherwise go to Shelter/ citizens advice for back up.

Good luck OP. Seems they're trying to put it onto you, to avoid higher insurance premiums. You've had some great advice, stand your ground in a polite and respectful way.

Some contents include liability cover on normal policies - I never deliberately added it but was very grateful I discovered it after I flooded my downstairs neighbour. My insurer covered all repair costs without telling me, I spent months petrified of getting sued for a fortune

My situation was much more clear cut in terms of blame compared to the OP's though, it was definitely all my fault!

I don’t think it’s your fault as your tenancy did not mention dodgy plumbing but if it somehow doesn’t go your way, just remember that the restaurant should only charge you for the PROFITS lost from the night, not the gross turnover, also they should charge the amount of takings for a comparable night, Friday/Saturday is much higher than Monday/Tuesday for instance and before x-mas it would be much busier than after.
Takings minus staff costs that they might not have paid and food costs that they didn’t use, some costs -rent etc are fixed but some are variable.
They wouldn’t have lost all the takings, they would have had the takings minus costs.

Thank you very much for the kind comments and support, and for the insurance info, I’ve learned a lot actually from this thread.

That’s a really good point @Xoxoxoxoxoxox which I didn’t even consider!

Can I ask if anyone knows whether this is standard in a home and/or legal?

All of our water from all sources in in the flat goes down the same one pipe, through the interior of the kitchen of the restaurant, in to a drainage cover which is in the restaurant and has a floor build over it, and this is in the kitchen and utility area of the restaurant. Oh gosh I hope that makes sense lol.

DP seems to think the toilet waste shouldn’t be going down the same pipe as our kitchen sink water, and that it should be an exterior pipe too, is that correct?

Pretty sure our bathroom waste pipe joins the kitchen waste, internally.

Ah ok, maybe this isn’t such a big deal then, thank you!

I can only say that as a landlord I have suffered leaks in my property and sucked it up ( not literally!) I never would have dreamt of trying to pin it on the tenants. If I knew my pipes were not standard construction and liable to block, I’d have a big laminated sign up in the toilet about no flushable wipes, plus something in the tenancy agreement, plus a reminder via email. I wouldn’t trust to “ common sense” “ everyone knows that” etc.

I haven't read all of the replies.. but do not admit liability or give any indication that you will pay anything.

'When you rent, your landlord is responsible for maintaining the functional aspects of your home such as plumbing, electricity, and heating. Landlords must also generally take action when flooding, a clogged pipe, pest infestation, or other problems occur.'
www.findlaw.com/realestate/landlord-tenant-law/is-my-landlord-responsible-for-repairs.html

Your landlord is responsible for insuring the building, .. not the tenant.

www.comparethemarket.com/home-insurance/content/landlord-buildings-insurance/

I am not a lawyer, but I agree with the lawyers above who say that you could not have been expected to know that items which have the 'safe to flush' logo on them, would cause a problem, unless you had been told that these pipes were specifically problematic.

As for the restaurant losses.. they should have business interruption insurance or should 'self insure'.. ie run the risk that these things happen.

This is a contractual issue between you and your landlord and unless there is a specific clause in your contract, I do not believe that you can be held to be liable for these costs.

Yes, the relationship might be ruined.. but that is not the point.

Yes, there are many people who 'know' that you shouldn't flush wipes, they are an ecological disaster and may well have contributed to the blocked pipes but it does not make you legally responsible for the repairs or the business losses.

The fact that the plumber's opinion that the entire sewage system of the UK is not fit for purpose is completely irrelevant.

Do not get drawn into the moral issue that you feel responsible. You do not have the financial luxury to throw money at the problem and also from the perspective of protecting your own mental health, surround yourself with people who will stand up for you, not tell you that you are an idiot for using the wipes and therefore are liable for these costs.. you might well be an idiot for using the wipes but that does not make you liable for the costs.

I've not read every page but another landlord here.

I can't imagine a world where I would hold you responsible, given what you've described. Flushable wipes might not be as good as they make out but I use them and you acted in good faith.

I'm not a lawyer so it would be advisable to seek legal advice. Depending on the type of home contents insurance you have, there may be a legal component that you can call upon for no additional cost. Failing that the CAB should be able to help.

Personally I'd let them take it to small claims as I think you're innocent and liability lies with the landlord. Your agreement may mention blockages but IMHO flushable wipes don't necessarily cause them (I've used them for years). Good luck and I hope you can stick to your guns and see it through.

Just wanted to add. Great advice @ChateauMargaux and hope the OP takes it all onboard.

Thank you very much for the last few comments, all appreciated and noted. I’m speaking to someone at the CAB tomorrow about all of this.

A small update now is that the estate agents have emailed us repeating that that we DO owe this money, and that it can’t be done through any insurance because the insurance companies would look to the people actually liable, which is apparently us. I didn’t fully understand what they meant by this but they seemed confident the insurance companies wouldn’t pay out.

They’ve also informed us they’ll be keeping our deposit to recover part of the costs (deposit is £950), and have said that they’ll all be happy for us to continue living here when the contract runs out in 3 months, as long as we pay these costs.

Any thoughts or advice welcome! I really am starting to panic now.

You need proper legal advice so take as much paperwork as you have to CAB. But if that doesnt help a solicitors appointment

The estate agents approach just seems wrong

Please note that an estate agent may (most probably) not know the law. Therefore their opinion is just that. You need proper legal advice.

Also your deposit should be protected by law so the can't just help themselves to it. Tell them you don't agree, will be seeking legal advice and will contest the deposit issue with the relevant agency.

I use the tenancy deposit scheme but not sure who yours will be protected by.

Definitely worth checking your contents insurance policy though. I've been advised that you don't necessarily need to be making a claim to make use of the legal component. I never knew this but was advised by a government agency.

Thanks @Quartz2208 I will do.

@Lunar27 they said there are certain clauses in the tenancy agreement where in certain circumstances the deposit can be retained by them/the landlady, and that this is one of those times.

Ahh unfortunately we don’t have any contents insurance - we honestly couldn’t afford it when we moved here.

Ok they are upping the ante. Firstly they can’t just decide to keep the deposit, this needs to be arbitrated by the deposit scheme they have registered you r deposit with. Ask the agent which scheme they used and contact them pre emptively for an opinion. Do not just agree to what the landlords/ agent are saying. There is better protection for tenants these days and these people seem to be relying in being able to push you around. Do not let them! You can also post in Landlordzone forums as a tenant , there will be people there who know the law and can advise further. The crux of the matter is you were occupying the premises in a reasonable manner and had not been informed re not using flushable wipes, it is not in the tenancy agreement and there is no audit trail of you being asked not to.

If you've not done this already go over the agreement and see what the relevant clauses are. Or ask them to point them out. Then get written statements detailing how they've arrived at the conclusion that you're liable. You can then take this to the CAB or solicitor to see if you have a case.

Personally I'd be looking to move out asap, if possible, and not line either of their pockets any further. Again, best of luck.

Just to add. Do you have a certificate and accompanying documentation for the deposit protection scheme they've used? This should've been given to you when you paid it and moved in.

I didn’t know there were landlord forums, this is brilliant and I’ll check them out!

Ok just checked and the deposit is in the DPS (Deposit Protection Service) which has been approved by the Ministry of Housing. There is an address, email and phone number for them. We do have a separate document for this which has been signed by the landlady and agents.

I know what you’re saying about moving out asap but it’s so incredibly difficult to find places that accept housing benefit/UC, and it’s daunting the thought of doing all that again. Plus we love it here. It’s so crazy that these damn toilet wipes have caused all of this!!

Get the estate agent to spell out to you with reference to the contract exactly what they mean by ‘certain clauses allow them to..’ etc.

I think they’re trying it on. I still think this is an insurance issue.

The whole point of landlord insurance is to insure against expensive repairs caused by tenants, or to provide alternative accommodation compensation etc if tenants must relocate somewhere.

The whole point of buildings insurance is to pay for expensive repairs to the fabric of the building.

Take your contract and all correspondence to CAB tomorrow.