So stressed - landlords are wanting us to pay for issues I don’t believe are our fault

[PinkLadiApples]

Hi, I really hope someone may be able to help me, will try to keep this readable.

We live in a flat above a restaurant, the entire building is owned by a lady who lives locally and she uses an estate agents to manage it. We moved in 3 months ago.

Last week, the people in the restaurant complained that suddenly every time we flushed the toilet, used the taps, the washing machine or the shower, water and toilet waste was coming through to them. We stopped immediately and called an emergency plumber out, who identified that the toilet pipes had become blocked and the reason was my partner was using flushable toilet wipes and they’d built up and caused this.

We were without access to our toilet, shower, washing machine and all taps for 5 days because various plumbers didn’t bother turning up, plus a builder and drain unblocker were needed to fix this. It was a huge massive job which was incredibly stressful and we had to use the restaurant downstairs toilet and sinks which was very kind of them.

That first night it happened, they had to close, understandably, and they’ve lost a lot of money from bookings. They’re a small independent family run restaurant so I realise this was a huge deal to them.

The narrative throughout these past few days was that it’s basically all our fault for using these wipes, the owner was hinting at this several times and said we’d hear from the estate agents soon. I should add, the area we live in is very very old and we’re actually in a listed building, she told us that pipes here extremely old and narrow and not like most places. However no one told us that when we moved here.

So today we’ve had an email saying the responsibility of all this is fully ours, and we’ll be invoiced soon for not only the plumbing and builder bills but for all lost income of the restaurant. We’ve checked our tenancy agreement and it just states we have to take reasonable precautions not to cause pipe blockages. Nothing about these particular pipes being extra narrow or old.

When we’ve said the toilet wipes packaging says it’s “Certified fine to flush” they’ve said everyone knows not to trust that, but I didn’t know!

If anyone knows where we stand legally please let me know, I’d be so grateful.

Don’t pay! You flushed wipes that said were flushable. The cost is enormous and is literally what insurance (which the landlord AND restaurant will have) is for! Let them take you to court if you must be I can’t see how you could be held liable for using a product as described when you weren’t warned about delicate pipes.

Theving bastards just don’t want their premiums to go up.

This doesn’t help your immediate problem, but he can buy a handheld squeeze bidet bottle that he fills up in the sink for around £15-20.

I suspect a turkey baster would be cheaper !!

Water UK says those wipes are fine to flush

www.water.org.uk/policy-topics/managing-sewage-and-drainage/fine-to-flush/

Unless your partner is using loads and loads of them daily, I cannot see how he could have destroyed the plumbing in a mere 3 months

Just googled a bit and it would seem that previous posters seem to be correct in saying that your landlord’s building insurance should cover it. You’re renting so building insurance isn’t applicable for you and your landlord should have made sure he had the appropriate building insurance in place to cover this type of thing. If he’s trying to wriggle off the hook, haul him back on because I would think this is going to get expensive.

No, this is nonsense. Don’t admit any liability or apologise. Regardless of what others posters have said, and even if they’re right, you have not acted negligently by flushing something which is advertised as flushable. And they may think that caused the blockage but they can’t prove it - frankly it’s more likely to be combination of the wipes and fat from the restaurant. You need a solicitor and a strongly worded letter. When were the drains last maintained? Betting never.

That sounds really stressful for you and the comments regarding liability for the costs of repairs and the restaurant must be really worrying.
Firstly, admit nothing and say they need to go to their relevant insurers.
From a liability point of view it is going to be really difficult for the restaurant to prove you have been negligent (and therefore responsible for their losses) - they should claim on their business interruption insurance cover and let their insurance company decide if they want to chase you for money (very unlikely)
Tell the landlord's agent that you've complied with the terms of the lease, have not acted negligently, and want to know whether as claim for the costs has been registered with the buildings insurance (which you'll contribute to in the lease) for the repair costs.
Also sort yourself out some cheap contents insurance, it can be only a few pounds a month - the included liability cover is really important when you're a tenant in a shared building and would deal with all of this for you.

This needs to go through your landlords insurance. A good landlord will have good insurance which should cover buildings and contents.

This is incorrect. The landlord should have buildings insurance but tenants need contents insurance for their own belongings.

I think this is a landlord’s insurance issue, and I would be really clear with them about that. I say that as a LL.

Getting the advice of Shelter is a good idea.

Agree, it will be the either landlords building insurance or the restaurant insurance or both, the only insurance you could have is contents if you wanted it which wouldn't be relevant here

@Userblabla

It’s not your fault OP, and you’re not stupid. We use the wipes now that they’re certified “fine to flush” we flush them and it’s fine, never had a blockage. My partner is actually a plumber so wouldn’t be doing it if he thought it’d cause an issue. The difference is I live in a very new home with decent plumbing. How on earth were you supposed to know the plumbing was knackered! Definitely do not offer to pay anything as that would be accepting liability. Start looking for somewhere else to move to after the 6 months and tell them to take you to court if they want you to pay, because this wasn’t your fault!

Thank you so much for this reply, it’s brilliant to hear from someone who lives with a plumber, and it’s also really interesting that you use them as well, so would you say it’s not about the wipes themselves but the actual system and pipes? And their ability to handle them?

The annoying thing is we don’t want to leave here! It’s amazing and it will be so upsetting to have to go, but we’re fully expecting the landlady to not renew the lease.

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to signpost me to people that may help, and give words of support, I’m so grateful. Sorry I can’t t reply individually to everyone it’s hard on my (crap) phone as the browser crashes a lot, but I’m honestly so thankful.

I will update about this.

@Northernsoullover

Can I just help you out on the wipes? You can buy sprays that you spray on your bog roll that turns normal loo roll into a wipe. Your partner can now freshen his arse fear free.

Omg this gave me such a laugh, thank you for that! 😂 He really does place a lot of importance on arse freshening - which is a good thing really lol.

We rent a flat in an area where all the pipes are really narrow. We tell tenants when they move in not to flush anything other than toilet paper.
We had one episode where the tenants had ran out of toilet paper so had used kitchen towel. We paid for the repair. We're not wealthy landlords by any stretch of the imagination but we had enough money at the time to pay for it. The tenants couldn't afford toilet roll at the time! They denied they'd used it but there was evidence.

We have building insurance, the tenants have contents insurance.
The landlord should have told you about the pipes. I think they are responsible for the leak.....unless your partner flushed tons of wipes in one go. Even so, as others have said, the restaurant should have insurance for this type of thing too.

God there's some really shit advice at the start of this thread!

This is 100% an insurance issue. This is exactly the kind of thing insurance is there for for goodness sake! My toilet malfunctioned and caused £8000 of damage to my flat and the two flats below. Every single penny was covered by our buildings insurance. A tenant does not sort out the buildings insurance because they don't own the property, the property owner is usually obliged to have it if they have a mortgage - but not if they don't. I'm wondering if perhaps the landlord or restaurant have been a bit lax and not got a policy and that is why they are asking you to pay...

@PinkLadiApples

Thank you very much for the suggestions for alternatives to the wipes, will pass these onto partner. Much appreciated.

I use Wype gel that you squirt onto toilet paper and it turns it into a wipe. We also have lined lidded bins so if you use wipes they can be binned rather than flushed

It’s definitely an issue with the pipes not the wipes. The companies that make them have all changed the manufacturing process and they now break down a lot quicker. You can tell using them that they rip a lot easier than they used to. I use them a lot at the moment for potty training and we don’t have an issue at all.

You need to speak to a solicitor though.

Those wipes are a bloody menace though. They say flushable, but as you have found out, they aren't really.

Your problem is surely that if you do not resolve the matter of the cost caused by your wet wipes blocking old sewage drains to your LL's satisfaction and do not pay the bills, he is likely to try to get you out a soon as he can.
If DH's requires a bidet why did you not rent property that has one?
I was also aware of the general warning never to flush any wet wipes and that they are very bad for the environment (because they do not degrade easily) .
Why don't you take Saintsbury's to court and/or send them the bill? If they say theirs are degradable and can be flushed - make a claim.

Yep, you acted in good faith here and this is deffo an insurance issue - don’t offer to pay or admit liability.

Yep, I'm a landlord and I wouldn't expect tenants to have buildings insurance. We have really comprehensive landlord insurance that covers all that.

If I was your landlord I'd be annoyed but go through the insurance. I wonder if they're not insured and trying to pull a fast one?

Just flicked through more of the thread. Some posters are being really unreasonable. Its not good saying ' everyone knows they aren't flushable' when clearly not everyone does. People who listen to news and current affairs a lot might, but they are hardly everyone.

If they are advertised as flushable it is entirely reasonable to believe that - especially from a reputable supermarket like Sainsbury's.

The people who are really at fault here are bloody Sainsbury's. They are the one's misadvertising their product! The tenant, landlord and restaurant are just unfortunate victims of misleading advertising here!

Ah I see someone else said that already! Speak to shelter.

@tara66

Your problem is surely that if you do not resolve the matter of the cost caused by your wet wipes blocking old sewage drains to your LL's satisfaction and do not pay the bills, he is likely to try to get you out a soon as he can. If DH's requires a bidet why did you not rent property that has one? I was also aware of the general warning never to flush any wet wipes and that they are very bad for the environment (because they do not degrade easily) . Why don't you take Saintsbury's to court and/or send them the bill? If they say theirs are degradable and can be flushed - make a claim.

Are you joking? How many properties have you seen for rent with a bidet? I’m guessing you own your home and haven’t got a clue what it’s like to be unwell and unable to work and renting a property that is the best you can afford and find available.

I don't think you are liable as the landlord should have landlords insurance and they would argue with restaurant insurers about liability for loss of business. There is a free phone in with a solicitor on LBC. Try phoning in?

Also, if you need legal advice, lots of universities run free law clinics - Google your local one and have a look, as well as checking with Shelter/CAB.

If your LL asked you to leave in favour f new tenants more fool them - because this is precisely the sort of thing you’re clearly NOT going to repeat!

Don’t get drawn into whether it’s the pipes or the wipes, btw.

By the letter of your contact you extended reasonable care (flushable wipes with the water safe logo). You’re not liable. The insurance companies (LL and restaurant) need to fight it out.